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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Well this certainly calls a spade a spade....surprising that this thing happens at the pro level--I don't have any reason to discount Scott's comments--but it's surprising that it happens in a race of this magnitude--I'd think there would be some self-policing and that reputations would be known and Jimmy and his team would look specifically for it. With so few pros and with them so close together this would seem to me to be a very doable task....

Nice race Scott!



Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations on a clean race. If what you wrote is actual facts then it is a shame and par with cheating by using drugs.I can not imagine what kind of drafting is going on on flatter courses.
This whole Ironman thing became way commercialized and more and more looks like a big circus every passing year any way.

--------------------------------------------------------
I see obsessed people.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations on riding a clean race.

>>2nd place finisher Bernhard Hiebl (who took cheating to a new level) as he was sucking a major draft, sitting right on the wheel of the guy ahead of him.<<

Maybe he thought he was in another ITU race?

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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great job scott

great job at the race!!!! and i want to support you in some of your comments. Unfortunutly, the race had a lot of guy at the same level and it bunch up quickly... it wasnt legal for a big part of it and the official gived many warning but no 4min penality like i do beleive it should have been.

ultimitely, it s our fault as professional and attitude need to change... i was very desappointed in the behavior on many of the guys yesturday..... and happy Rhodesy won the race in a clean way....

Jonathan Caron

Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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180km is a looooong way,...there's tonnes of road for 15 riders to fill. I personally believe that biking in a long pack is inexcusable,...even at the pro-level. That being said,...if the draft marshal isn't willing to give draft penalties,...then that sends the message to the riders that everything is okay.

The draft marshal who was on the course, was the same one who briefed us at the pro-meeting. He gave us a hard talk saying, that he's going to be out there, looking for drafting, and will call us on it. "Don't try to argue with me" he said,...he's an English teacher, who's fluent in French, German, Spanish etc.,...he'll find a language to make sure you understand!!!! Well, the talk at the pro-meeting was inversely proportional to how he governed and policed the course. If he's not willing to give penalties, then what incentive is there to ride any further apart than the who's guy sucking your wheel????!!!!


http://www.bikeforest.com/scott
Last edited by: CURRY: Aug 25, 08 15:27
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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First penalty 1 mile run...second penalty, 2 more miles...3 extra miles will scare anyone from drafting :-). Congrats on a great race!

Dev
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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<replying to you because Scott deleted his post>

Scott, it's too bad you deleted your initial post, although I suppose I understand why you did. What you said was 100% truth however. Being in a vehicle that leapfrogged the leaders all day, I got the opportunity to see the top men and women for pretty much the whole bike. There was some clean riding by certain individuals, but there was a LOT of drafting going on as well. Not so much among the ladies, but the men's field was pretty bad.

Props to some of the pros who rode clean: (NB - exclusion from this list does not necessarily mean that a given pro was drafting his ass off - it is by no means exhaustive and sometimes I do forget to mention people as well. Having said that, certain pros were most assuredly left off on purpose.)

Marky V (off the front all day, Faris style)
Bryan Rhodes
Chris Brown
Jon Caron
Scott Curry
Jasper Blake
Andriy Yastrebov
Gordo
Kyle Marcotte
Courtney Ogden
Matt Lieto
Justin Daerr
Matt Seeley
Oliver Blake


The fast AG men were even worse (a LOT worse), but I have no idea who they are...

The line that "it's impossible not to draft" is complete and utter BS. It can be done, and at the sharp end is actually pretty easy. It's harder for a 1:20+ swimmer to ride clean, but even back there it is very much possible.

For those who really just want to draft, I have no problems with that - learn to swim and race ITU. It's awesome, and I love it. But if you're racing non-drafting races (which includes IM), ride clean already.


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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Khai, there were many top age group men that were absolutely ridiculous. Like you said the excuse of not having a choice is utter bullshit. All you have to do is sit up and let 10, 20, 50, or in the case of Lakerfan and myself, let 100 dudes blow by.

To me, there is no difference between using EPO, HGH or drafting. I have tolerance for momentarily being in a position of situational drafting during your legal 15 second 4 bike pass period, but just sitting on someon's tail is absolutely unacceptable. I cannot comment on the pro race, but can comment on the AG race and if you look you'll see a lot of splits with swims in the 64-67 range and bike rides around 5:16 ....backed up with blazing runs....of course you can back up those bike rides with blazing runs when you do 100 watts less than the guys dropping back and riding clean.

The sad part is that AG guys are doing this for fun...to challenge themselves and be the best they can be. I guess this is the same type of psychology that leads to cooking the books at Enron, stealing competitor data sheets, or insider trading....anything to get ahead of the other guy be it legal or not....just cause you see "'everyone else doing it" does not make it legal.

I joked in my my race report about 'DRAFTWATER AT OSOYOOS", but that is exactly what went on. The only way to break it up is wave starts or start with an uphill climb to Yellow Lakes out of T1 and then continue with the rest of the course after dropping down to OK falls and continuing with the rest of the course as it is today...at least at Placid, this level of blatant drafting and lack of respect for fair play is not possible simply because of 20K or uphill out of T1.

Dev
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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The difference between drafting distance and not drafting distance is less than a second. If you can't manage that on 112 miles of open road, you have no business racing Ironmans. If you find that you're within drafting distance of someone, stop pedaling for, what, all of 2 seconds? If you're faster than the other person, then you should be in front of them by now.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Dude... repost it. The truth is the truth. Repost it.

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'19 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Alright, big man,...I'll repost it, perhaps a little more edited. Kudos to you for 'going for it yesterday'. You put on a gutsy effort. It was great to hang with you after the race.

I wasn't able to put it back to my initial post,...so I'll post it here:
***********

Dirty, dirty, dirty! I’ve always loved to race Ironman Canada based on the fact that the hills often will break people up, and keep packs from forming. My image of the race is now tainted,…the race yesterday was dirty, and far too full of cheating.
I apologize for sounding bitter,…nobody likes a sour puss. I will say however, apart from being disgruntled, I really did enjoy myself yesterday. I finished in a decent time of 8hr52min, with a big smile, and happy heart, knowing that I raced cleanly and the best as I could on the day. Far too many of the top eight men (as deep as the money goes), however didn’t deserve to be there, because they got there by sucking draft on the bike. With that said, those in the top eight who I witnessed race cleanly, were KYLE MARCOTTE, COURTNEY OGDEN (who was in the pack, but at least made an attempt to keep his distance), and BRYAN RHODES. The only guy in the top eight who I didn’t see on the bike, was Justin Daerr.
Anyways, I exited the water in the second group of athletes. Kyle Marcotte from Calgary was one of them. I sat on a chair next to him in transition while we sorted our gear. I asked him how he was feeling, and we both wished each other good races.
The group we exited the water with, started to form a bit of a loose pack. Early on, one of my water bottles slipped out from the cage affixed underneath my aerobars. I turned around and picked it up from the ground. I lost touch with this group, however it was within eyesight. Kyle Marcotte was then trailing about 50m behind it. I took a page out of Tom Evan’s book of smart IM bike racing, and took it super easy up the first hill, McLean Creek Rd. By then, everyone seemed to have pulled quite a way ahead of me. Slowly, I started making some gains on Kyle. I caught back up to Kyle around Oliver, and as I passed him, I told him that I thought that we both were racing smart (in terms of pacing). I ended up closing in on a massively long line of riders — I’m guessing at about 15 pro-men. Christopher Brown was off the front about 100m ahead of this group, doing his own race. I spotted the draft marshal, and asked him if he was doing anything about draft pack??? He replied that he can’t do anything when the media vehicle is beside the pack — I still don’t really understand that excuse. Through the aid station on Ritcher’s pass, the pack was about 200m ahead of me — I grabbed some water and was spraying the entire bottle all over the body for the purpose of keeping me cool. I threw the bottle to the side of the road, just after the LAST CHANCE DROP OFF zone. It was then that the draft marshal came up to me and gave me a YELLOW CARD penalty for throwing my bottle passed this zone. In his words, he said “I’M REALLY SORRY TO HAVE TO DO THIS TO YOU, AFTERALL YOU’VE BEEN RIDING SO CLEAN”. In my mind I’m thinking, if I’m riding cleanly, does that mean that you acknowledge that the pack ahead is NOT riding cleanly,…AND IF SO,…WHY ARE YOU NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT???!??
At this point, I knew that it was pointless to argue with the official,…all I could do was shake my head.
I then asked him one more time,…”then can you PLLLLEEEEASE try to break up that pack?”
I spoke with the official again, closer to the top of Ritcher’s,…as if to make me feel better, he told me that he gave out some penalties.
While I was serving my bottle-toss infringement in the penalty tent, Kyle Marcotte then passed me again. It took me until the end of the rollers to catch back up to him. At that point, Kyle Marcotte was closing in on one particular pro who served a yellow card in the tent earlier. A few minutes after passing this guy, I looked back to see where he was,…I was disappointed to see the bugger on my wheel! I then had some choice words for him and asked him what he thought he was doing!!!??? He replied, “I’m on your ASS!” Needless to say, further conversation deteriorated from there.
Around the 100km mark, spending a great deal of time in around 15th place, I made a decision to start upping the pace. At the special needs, I grabbed my bag, with two waterbottles and two instant ice-packs,…the kind that requires you to burst a gel/bladder, then you shake the bag, and it induces a cooling reaction. I shook ‘em up, and put them in my cycling jersey.
Soon thereafter special needs, I caught up to Christoper Brown,…I tried to encourage along, and suggested to him to go get the guys ahead. Once I got back onto the main highway,…I was in close contact with the pack of riders again. I was feeling very good,…as though I had another 3 gears. As I flew by the pack, I had some distinctly choice words again for eventual 2nd place finisher Bernhard Hiebl (who took cheating to a new level) as he was sucking a major draft, sitting right on the wheel of the guy ahead of him.
I had a strong last 50km of the race, I was putting some serious time on people, and felt in complete control. My coach Paulo was telling me to ‘chill just a little bit’. I actually felt like I was chillin’ already– it was just a day where cycling fast felt easy. It was certainly not my intention to go for the fastest bike split, but things worked out that way — to my complete surprise, I ended up biking a 4hr39min, and was in 3rd, within striking distance while starting the run.
I felt super good for the first 15km of the run,…I was holding well on the pressing men behind me, and got pretty close to the overall lead. At this point, I felt like I could win it. Without stomach problems, cramping, or any notable mini-disasters, I just simply started to slow. I was passed by a number of men close to the turnaround. The rest of my race was unremarkable,…I just got it done - step by step. One of the last guys to pass me was eventual 8th place finisher Courtney Ogden. As he passed me, I made a comment that I can’t believe the number of guys racing so fast today — he replied, “yeah, but you saw the bike!!!”. Anyways, by the end, I was really happy to have finished and be able to be reunited with my wife Allison at the finish line.
I was really flattered from words of Paula Newby Fraser, and Micheal Lovato at the finish line too — they both had nice things to say about my efforts on the bike regarding my attempt to ‘go for it’.
Thanks for reading!!! Congrats to all those who finished.
Best,
Scott


http://www.bikeforest.com/scott
Last edited by: CURRY: Aug 26, 08 0:09
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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That sucks! If it is "ok" for the pros to draft with money/careers on the line, it seems unlikely that the situation in the AG ranks will improve anytime soon. Hard to understand how the draft marshalls know and don't care.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for reposting.

You don't succeed in life by bowing to the wishes of others. The truth is the truth and doing what you need to do will take you the farthest.

Good hangin' with ya last night as well. Dude you were up late.... and probably already on the road right now! :)

Banff/Jasper... HERE I COME!!!!

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'19 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Like you said the excuse of not having a choice is utter bullshit.

Dev,

Yes and No.

In the pro race with a much smaller race field and a separate start, I would say that you almost have to go out of your way to draft on a course like IMC. It's not inadvertant. It's not an accident. I was not there, but from what I know of him, Scott Curry is stand-up kinda guy. He's a Pro, but he works full time. This is not his whole life, so I would tend to trust what he has to say. I doubt he's making this up or that it's sour grapes.

As for the AG situation - this is completely different. Here, it is a major physics problem that at times( first 40 - 60K on this course) you have too many people, on too little road, with too little challenge. Eventually it does sort itself out, but you can't put that many people on the road, in that short a period of time and have them abide exactly by the rules. The rules are great, but they are asking the athletes to do something that is impossible to do.

This was a problem at IMC 15+ years ago when the field was half the size that it is now. I suspect it is only worse now. People say ease up and let them pass. Well that's fine, but if you swim 1:10'ish at IMC these days, you might as well just pull over to the side of the road anywhere along the road to the Husky station in Oysoyos, set up a lawn chair and wait for 20 - 30 minutes for it to thin out, then head out again. Remember, this is a race - not a tour.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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[The sad part is that AG guys are doing this for fun...to challenge themselves and be the best they can be]
That is "ideally" true.
However @ one point some folks will no longer look @ finishing the race but getting a PR and potentially Kona slot. Some will do it cleanly, some will try to take some advantages with drafting for example, some will follow because others are doing it so why not them.

At the end an Ironman is not that different than every day life and I do not see why it would be different and why suddenly everybody would behave correctly.

Fred.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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2200 people out of t1 in what? 45 minutes?

thats (on average, even) almost a person every second, I just don't see how you can stop drafting on a mass-start race with that many participants.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [acronym] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
2200 people out of t1 in what? 45 minutes?

thats (on average, even) almost a person every second, I just don't see how you can stop drafting on a mass-start race with that many participants.

as a slow swimmer, i start the bike with the roads thick with riders. luckily, all through town you have 2 or 3 lanes of width, so you can find clean pavement all the way to the turn off up mcclean. the problem there, is that it looks like the escalators at a busy airport: shoulder to shoulder bikes going 4 mph. drafting isn't an issue at those speeds, but to pass, you have to hug that yellow line without going across it. once on the hwy again out of OK Falls, it's single file and you either are constantly passing, or dropping back, so it's a challenge, but not impossible. there were several people riding way too far into the hwy though for my comfort. they may have thought they were still on closed roads! you have to be actively concentrating to avoid being too close to riders, but i find it quite do-able. the real problem is that you often ride faster than you intend to get around people, so your pacing can get screwed up for awhile.

_________________________________________________________________

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Nobody's constipated on race morning
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [acronym] [ In reply to ]
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2200 people out of t1 in what? 45 minutes?

That's my point. Too many cyclists, on too little road, in too short a period of time. However, no one wants to do anything about this. There are some obvious solutions, but no one wants to adopt them.

1. Reduce the field size( Financially impractical)
2. Wave starts( personally I hate them - you never know where you are in the race)
3. Killer bike course profile right out of T1( impractical)
4. Total road closures, so full width of the road can be used( impractical)
5. Revisit the drafting rules( impractical and impossible)
6. Draconion implementation of the rules( Impractical and pisses too many people off)

. . and so on
. . . and on we go with a debate that is almost as old as the sport itself



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Aug 26, 08 7:57
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well that's fine, but if you swim 1:10'ish at IMC these days, you might as well just pull over to the side of the road anywhere along the road to the Husky station in Oysoyos, set up a lawn chair and wait for 20 - 30 minutes for it to thin out, then head out again.




I hear you, but I don't agree with you. I am the swimmer you describe and I never had to draft. There is indeed a large pack of folks coming out between 1:05 and 1:20 but they are mostly of very different cycling abilities and strengths. I typically pass lots of folks and then usually later packs come by cruising by TdF style that include some of the guys I passed individually earlier. These guys know what they are doing is wrong and no one is forcing them to sit on the ass of a line of guys. I call this excuse bull because 10 days ago I did a duathlon outside of Winston-Salem (won by Slowtwitcher Brian Stover) and they had a field of about 175 spread out over a 25 mile bike course after a 5k run. I saw similar blatant drafting there and the roads were wide open.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you, but I don't agree with you. I am the swimmer you describe and I never had to draft. There is indeed a large pack of folks coming out between 1:05 and 1:20 but they are mostly of very different cycling abilities and strengths.

Herbert,

Yes it can be done, legally but it's challenging. Part of the issue is the course. At IMC, with one exception, it's downhill with the wind for the first 60K. There for no challenges, and little break-up. Same at IMFL. I note that at IMUSA, that the drafting issues are less - as the first 40K are reasonably challenging - long up-hill, then a downhill that scares the be-jesus out of most and has many riding the brakes - after that it's typically no problem for the remaining 120K. Same at IMWisco - so much up and technical down that it weeds/sorts people out in fairly good order.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of drafting in the back bit of the out and back at LP this year.... not sure why just there and not on the way out or on other flat bits
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
. I note that at IMUSA, that the drafting issues are less - as the first 40K are reasonably challenging - long up-hill, then a downhill that scares the be-jesus out of most and has many riding the brakes - after that it's typically no problem for the remaining 120K.

lol, none of what you describe at LP is what I experienced when I raced it. Perhaps for the FOP folks it weeds itself out, but the MOP folks, it was a draftfest.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
Last edited by: M~: Aug 26, 08 8:23
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck, I agree and disagree with you. What I saw in the AG ranks near Osoyoos, was complete and utter disregard for fair play in the FOP age group ranks. We're not talking about the first hour of racing here....we're well into the second hour. There is plenty of room on the road. When someone passes, obey the rule and sit up till your 4 bike lengths have developed. After that, you can start passing other guys legally, or stay back 4 bike lengths.

What I saw was a ton of guys at 1 foot back, making no attempt to either drop back or move ahead.

I understand situational drafting and have been in the sport for 24 years now. I'm just asking my fellow competitors to try to make the best of the situation and attempting to play in the spirit of the rules. I know it is possible because I did....you still get a draft at 4 bike lengths back, so why follow at 1 foot back....just play the game legally. There is plenty of road down near Osoyoos.

Right out of T1 fine...it is congested and hard to be completely clean for a few K heading out of town.

The best thing that IMC could do is start the race heading right uphill out of town to Yellow Lakes to the 97 junction and then dropping down to OK falls and continuing from there to Osoyoos on the flats. The McClean Creek diversion is too short...lots of guys can spike their power for 2 min to stay in their "group" and gain 10 minutes going down to Osoyoos soft pedalling 100W less than the solo guys.

Please be clear that this post is about the integrity of the sport. I don't really care if others guys get an advantage on me by drafting, using EPO or HGH. What I care about is the integrity of the sport. I'm just out there racing myself trying to get a PB...what others do have no impact on my race, but for friends trying to get to Kona or place on age group podiums, they are being cheated!

Dev
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, people complain all the time, then sign up for the same race. This is why I could never consider
clearwater. Why spend all that money to just be in a draft fest. Kudos to the marketing that have sucked
in so many folks.

Now, folks REALLY do not want a tough race. At the DU long course are Nationals at Auburn, the bike and run kicks
everyone's butt and there is NO drafting. But, guess what, not that many folks signed up since they knew is was a REAL
course. Now, Brad has put a bid in for having Nationals next year also, but if he does not get it, the reason will be
it is TOO hard for folks.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my issue in the pro race when money is involved. If there is any advantage in riding "X" distance behind another rider, it shouldn't be allowed...period.

There are 'draft legal' races.

There are 'non-drafting' races.

Period...nothing in between.

It is proven that there is an advantage when riding 10m (front to front)...so why allow it??? Whether you are saving 30% (on someone's wheel), or saving 10% (back a bit more)....you are getting an advantage and last time I checked, that was drafting and isn't allowed.

I mean come on, how many pros are riding in one race? 30, 50, maybe 80 in some.

Multiple loop course....close them off and give a separate lane for them. Point is, that if a race is giving away 50k, 75k, 500k in prize money...the race should be run in a way that is clean.

+++++++++

Scott's post was gutsy and no doubt it will get a lot of attention....but this issue NEEDS to be addressed. Kona, Florida, Clearwater, Canada, wherever....it goes on everywhere and needs to stop.

Whatever the rule is, the boundary will be pushed.....make the zone bigger and get more officials out there.

FWIW - At IMCDA, I saw 2 motorcycles...the whole ride.

BB
-

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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They pack so many people on the course and such large groups form that if you do get passed, legally you'd have to drop back to T1 and start over again. :0
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,

Could it be that too many people are riding to a formula, to watts or to HR? They have all heard the power experts on here talking about how bad it is to spike the power, or cap the HR etc . . .We rode to nothing years ago. If you wanted to drop someone or make a move - you got out of the saddle and/or jumped on it for 3 - 4 minutes. Job done. Or you just backed off.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck, if they are riding to their wattage formula, they will see that they are doing 100 W less in the peleton and even 4 bike lengths back probably 20W less!!!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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"a duathlon outside of Winston-Salem (won by Slowtwitcher Brian Stover)"

Wait, you are going to compare a fat guys fun run to IMC? If it was won by Stover, it couldn't have been that hard! :)
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

There is no insult that would effect me more than being an assumed drafter. Considering I never saw you on the bike till you came by me at mile 95 (when I was finally able to drop the group and get a minute gap). Before that point I was letting those guys do there game while watching at a distance. I personally had 3 guys get "warnings" for not passing me in time on Richter and following too close. I believe if you asked anyone in that group, and all of your friends on the course giving splits, they would say that I rode fair and legal, and probably did too much work up front.

I thought you had a great race, and showed heart on the run. If you think I cheated please email me directly and we can chat. This is what I do for a living, and the last thing I need after a hard day at the office, is to be lumped into what I hate the most.

Tired- Matt Lieto

-Matt Lieto
Last edited by: justhavefun: Aug 26, 08 9:35
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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. I note that at IMUSA, that the drafting issues are less - as the first 40K are reasonably challenging - long up-hill, then a downhill that scares the be-jesus out of most and has many riding the brakes - after that it's typically no problem for the remaining 120K.

lol, none of what you describe at LP is what I experienced when I raced it. Perhaps for the FOP folks it weeds itself out, but the MOP folks, it was a draftfest.
I came out of the water in 1:01 and had a 5:36 bike in LP.........Spent much of the day looking up the road at a group of 12 who
were taking pulls and pointing out things in the road.

Draft marshal came by and gave two penalties - at least that's how many stopped at the next penalty tent - lost sight of them heading up White Face - I guess it helps to have fresh legs on that section!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Blakebeck] [ In reply to ]
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Point is, that if a race is giving away 50k, 75k, 500k in prize money...the race should be run in a way that is clean.

Uhhh - what sport are we talking about now? That prize purse sure ain't for triathlon!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

Agreed. It's a slippery slope.

However, this is a situation that has been allowed to drift now for many years and no one, not RD's, not offcials and not athletes wants to do anything other than what is being done about it. We are all to blame
.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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this is going to be a great thread.

The OP shows he's Ballsy and pulls no punches. Kudos.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Time to start the cameras rolling on these people then there is no dispute.I have always said(during those brief few years when my opinion meant anything)that those busted for repeated drafting in an IM should lose their ability to claim an Hawaii spot.Repeat offenders(and there are many)are put on a register and if they continually draft in M races then they are banned from competing in future events.Call me the draft nazi but lets get rid of those who draft in every race they do.

.
Last edited by: Ultra-tri-guy: Aug 26, 08 8:56
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Make the courses tough and problem is solved.

MissP, my better half did IM Lanzarote earlier this year. It was a mass start race, even for the Pros, and she rode solo almost the whole way for 112 miles!





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, every race I start, i talk to the race officials and am pretty upfront with the fact I think they don't call enough penalties and are doing a dis-service to the athletes. This often makes me a target, but since I know i am legal, it hasn't hurt me yet.

2 years ago at Canada the official I had this conversation with pre-race, no exaggeration, rode his moto directly across from me the ENTIRE way from Oliver to OSOYOOS. He actually sacrificed the legality of the race up the road, to try and prove a point to me. Didn't make me feel that awesome to say the least.

WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

-Matt Lieto
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

The AG situation is more challenging. However, for the Pros - you guys can speak up and at least put some ideas on the table. But I have sat through enough pre-race pro meetings over the years, and it always seems like a bit of a love-in at a commune. It's always high-fiving-and-hows-the-training-going. Rarely are the harder issues ever brought up and addressed and talked through. To be honest, pre-race meetings are not the place to be having these sorts of discussions, but it's the only time that enough key people are all in one room at one time. I am not a big union guy, but something does need to be done so that RD's and Pros can meet and start to talk. There is more on the line here than just the rules. For example, if I was still sitting in that room ( and sometimes by chance, I am, but I have no voice these days), I would want to know why the prize purses are the same as they were 20 years ago?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly. This is one reason I am back to doing Oly distance stuff.
There is none of this I can get a tattoo junk.. You just have to race your ass off to be competitive.

Dave

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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IMC, IMAZ and CDA had 75k in prize money. Kona has a lot....

Professional Triathlete
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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For example, if I was still sitting in that room ( and sometimes by chance, I am, but I have no voice these days), I would want to know why the prize purses are the same as they were 20 years ago?

YES...thank you Steve!
-

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty easy to do an Oly within the usual cutoff too, and you don't even have to pay any attention to all that complicated nutrition stuff. Seems to me that in IM you have to 'race your ass off' to be competitive too.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly.


Bloody hell, the water boy wrote something I agree with.

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev how bout 1k penalty loops.........did they not have that back in like Nice or one of the other 4/120/30 races, maybe at there worlds.

I would love to see that. We should e-mail Graham.

tfun~
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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I agree - athletes race for respect (self respect, and respect from competitors). If draft marshalls were all equipped with cheap small video cameras, they could simply video athletes that are drafting and then during the award ceremonies have a little video in the corner that highlights the cheaters - then of course everyone could shame them for cheating. I agree with Fleck about AG's - but share Scott's concern with the pro ranks. I was watching the race from the race updates at home and was really proud of the work that Rhodes did out there on his own. Trying to sit on someone's wheel is shameful during a race. Some guys just dont care I guess and will do anything to get ahead.

Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at Rudy Project, Blue Seventy, Xterra, Kestrel and GURU (for the custom fit), Brooks, and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

I completely agree. I have no issue with playing within the rules and staying your distance accordingly. We all need to say more about the flagrant violations. I guess I have been relatively insulated for the past many years, doing local racing and IMLP which might have a few packs where the geography results on way too many riders stuffed into a narrow out and back, but on the balance it is much cleaner. Even Kona is much cleaner than the road down the Richter at IMC.

In the end, it is up to us athletes to "play fair" and make an attempt to obey the spirit of the rules. This is what I have the biggest beef with. More age groupers need to speak up when these packs form. WE (I am using the collective) all have a choice. We can choose to be the generally honest guy that still steal the $100 bill that is left on the cafeteria table when no one is looking knowing that a colleague left it there, or we can be the guy that takes it to the reception saying that money was left by "someone in the cafeteria"...WHICH GUY DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Do you want to be the guy that took something that someone else rightfully earned, or do you want to go earn the cash yourself and return what you found to the owner?

As I tell the kids that I coach in XC skiing, what separates a good and great athlete is what you do when no one is looking...be it coaches, officials, parents etc etc.

I have no beef with following legally and getting the legal benefit of the reduced draft. It is the blatant stuff that is out of hand.

Dev
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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How about public shaming?
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Lazy Ben] [ In reply to ]
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Be careful now. Smile

Dave

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