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working some USRPT into swim training questions
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gregkeller
Nov 22, 19 7:05
Post #1 of 14 (1939 views)
So I have a decent swim background, good understanding of the stroke and training methods for pool swimmers, new to triathlon with one season of competition behind me.

I know USRPT is kind of a buzzword, and pretty polarized opinions on it out there. I'm not really looking to create a discussion as to it's merits or problems, but I am a fan of doing some specific race pace work and really like the idea of USRPT with lots of short intervals at your pace. I am no where near the point where I want to implement USRPT full time as my only swimming stimulus, but more likely will work it into my "harder" days in the pool.

My question is to people who've used it before and if you have had any luck training at "goal" pace vs. current race pace. Currently I can hold 1:22-1:25/100y getting the USRPT requisite :20 rest for my 10x100 sets. I'd really like to get to the point where I'm one of the faster few getting out of the water in local tri's, and I'm doing a 70.3 next season and would love to have a really fast swim (sub 28?), so how stupid would it be to try and do USRPT sets at 1:18/100? I can do 1:18's without too much trouble, not sure how many I would get through, but am I training the wrong energy system by doing it? I obviously have a lot of time between now and next season to get to that level, but I feel like my swimming has become a little boring and would love a little more structure and goal to motivate me through the winter.
USAT Level 1 Coach
Team Next Level
http://goteamnltri.com/
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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ajthomas
Nov 22, 19 7:48
Post #2 of 14 (1915 views)
Yes, if your bread an butter set is 10 x 100's on 1:45 holding 1:24s you would be well served by adding a few where you went 1:18's with more rest.
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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Abergili
Nov 22, 19 8:15
Post #3 of 14 (1897 views)
If you make it through the set without failing then you are suppose to decrease your pace by a second the next time you do the set. So in theory over time you would improve your pace down to your 1:18 goal
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123
Nov 22, 19 9:05
Post #4 of 14 (1863 views)
gregkeller wrote:
So I have a decent swim background, good understanding of the stroke and training methods for pool swimmers, new to triathlon with one season of competition behind me.

I know USRPT is kind of a buzzword, and pretty polarized opinions on it out there. I'm not really looking to create a discussion as to it's merits or problems, but I am a fan of doing some specific race pace work and really like the idea of USRPT with lots of short intervals at your pace. I am no where near the point where I want to implement USRPT full time as my only swimming stimulus, but more likely will work it into my "harder" days in the pool.

My question is to people who've used it before and if you have had any luck training at "goal" pace vs. current race pace. Currently I can hold 1:22-1:25/100y getting the USRPT requisite :20 rest for my 10x100 sets. I'd really like to get to the point where I'm one of the faster few getting out of the water in local tri's, and I'm doing a 70.3 next season and would love to have a really fast swim (sub 28?), so how stupid would it be to try and do USRPT sets at 1:18/100? I can do 1:18's without too much trouble, not sure how many I would get through, but am I training the wrong energy system by doing it? I obviously have a lot of time between now and next season to get to that level, but I feel like my swimming has become a little boring and would love a little more structure and goal to motivate me through the winter.

I thought the point of USRPT was to do enough sets and/or go fast enough so you DO fail
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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gregkeller
Nov 22, 19 9:20
Post #5 of 14 (1854 views)
yeah, absolutely are supposed to fail, I guess the difference would be at what point failure occurs. If I'm training for a 1.9 km swim, how many 100's do I want to "make"? In USRPT the set is over once you miss three. For a distance swim of 1.9 km, swimming at my current pace with 20 seconds rest, I would make a ton more than if I go at my goal pace, especially early on in the process. So in my head I have a bunch of things swirling around like, if i'm working at my current "race" pace am I looking at doing 40+ 100's in a set? mentally I don't love that idea, whereas if I can work at my goal pace and I'm only looking at 20ish 100's, it's a little easier to mentally get up for. Guess I need to read up on USRPT theory a little more.
USAT Level 1 Coach
Team Next Level
http://goteamnltri.com/
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123
Nov 22, 19 9:31
Post #6 of 14 (1850 views)
gregkeller wrote:
yeah, absolutely are supposed to fail, I guess the difference would be at what point failure occurs. If I'm training for a 1.9 km swim, how many 100's do I want to "make"? In USRPT the set is over once you miss three. For a distance swim of 1.9 km, swimming at my current pace with 20 seconds rest, I would make a ton more than if I go at my goal pace, especially early on in the process. So in my head I have a bunch of things swirling around like, if i'm working at my current "race" pace am I looking at doing 40+ 100's in a set? mentally I don't love that idea, whereas if I can work at my goal pace and I'm only looking at 20ish 100's, it's a little easier to mentally get up for. Guess I need to read up on USRPT theory a little more.

I started a thread about swim arm speed

gary p was kind enough to make a detailed post what I could do

I did a google search of USRPT and found a post by gary p on another forum

I hope he doesn’t mind me posting it here. It seems to be what you are asking about.

“ Conditioning

conditioning workouts I do regular USRPT sets for a distance or two down from the race distance. For example, if an HIM was my targeted A race, Conditioning workouts would be 100’s at 800m/1000y pool race pace, or 75’s at 400m/500y pool race pace. This would allow me to get to the set failure point much more quickly than by doing sets at triathlon race pace. It works, because there’s a lot of conditioning crossover for races 400m and up. Make yourself a faster 400/500 and 800/1000 swimmer, you’ll automatically have a higher speed potential at 1500m-1.2 miles. You just have to learn the proper pacing, and that’s where the Specificity workouts come in.

Specificity Training
1.5X race distance at triathlon race pace. So, for a HIM, I’d be looking to go ~3000M/3300yds , swimming long segments (200-400m/ 200-500 yards), on traditional USPRT rest (17-22 seconds). Failure is not be the objective. Honestly, I hope to be able to make all repeats at pace, feeling a bit tired at the end of the set, but not exhausted.”
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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gary p
Nov 22, 19 9:57
Post #7 of 14 (1833 views)
MrTri123 wrote:

I did a google search of USRPT and found a post by gary p on another forum

I hope he doesn’t mind me posting it here. It seems to be what you are asking about.

“ Conditioning

conditioning workouts I do regular USRPT sets for a distance or two down from the race distance. For example, if an HIM was my targeted A race, Conditioning workouts would be 100’s at 800m/1000y pool race pace, or 75’s at 400m/500y pool race pace. This would allow me to get to the set failure point much more quickly than by doing sets at triathlon race pace. It works, because there’s a lot of conditioning crossover for races 400m and up. Make yourself a faster 400/500 and 800/1000 swimmer, you’ll automatically have a higher speed potential at 1500m-1.2 miles. You just have to learn the proper pacing, and that’s where the Specificity workouts come in.

Specificity Training
1.5X race distance at triathlon race pace. So, for a HIM, I’d be looking to go ~3000M/3300yds , swimming long segments (200-400m/ 200-500 yards), on traditional USPRT rest (17-22 seconds). Failure is not be the objective. Honestly, I hope to be able to make all repeats at pace, feeling a bit tired at the end of the set, but not exhausted.”


Yes, it's a bit more complicated to apply USRPT principals to train for triathlon swimming. In USRPT training for swim-only events, you're getting your optimal conditioning and your specificity (neural patterning) at the same pace. For triathlon, since your race effort isn't such that you'll be exhausted at the end of the swim, your "race pace" is below the pace which best drives the adaptations. So you have to work both separately. That said, I think you can ignore the slower, triathlon race specific pace early in the training block, working it in as you get closer to your targeted event.

IMHO, 10x100 isn't a meaningful USPRT, or even USRPT-like, set for a 2100 yard swim. 10 x 100 at 1:18 pace won't help you be a better 1.2 mile swimmer as much as 20 x 100 @ 1:22 pace or even 20 x 75 1:18 pace.
"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Nov 22, 19 10:01
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT
Nov 22, 19 15:33
Post #8 of 14 (1784 views)
A pure USRPT program isn't that great. Taking the structure of a USRPT set and applying it to your training will be an efficient way to train. I've been implementing race pace training with the team I coach for 5+ years at this point.

I wrote this article on the topic about 5 years ago. My thinking has changed a bit since then, but the article is still good.

What race distance are you training?

Tim
http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
Quote Reply
Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gary p] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MrTri123
Nov 22, 19 16:28
Post #9 of 14 (1768 views)
gary p wrote:
MrTri123 wrote:

I did a google search of USRPT and found a post by gary p on another forum

I hope he doesn’t mind me posting it here. It seems to be what you are asking about.

“ Conditioning

conditioning workouts I do regular USRPT sets for a distance or two down from the race distance. For example, if an HIM was my targeted A race, Conditioning workouts would be 100’s at 800m/1000y pool race pace, or 75’s at 400m/500y pool race pace. This would allow me to get to the set failure point much more quickly than by doing sets at triathlon race pace. It works, because there’s a lot of conditioning crossover for races 400m and up. Make yourself a faster 400/500 and 800/1000 swimmer, you’ll automatically have a higher speed potential at 1500m-1.2 miles. You just have to learn the proper pacing, and that’s where the Specificity workouts come in.

Specificity Training
1.5X race distance at triathlon race pace. So, for a HIM, I’d be looking to go ~3000M/3300yds , swimming long segments (200-400m/ 200-500 yards), on traditional USPRT rest (17-22 seconds). Failure is not be the objective. Honestly, I hope to be able to make all repeats at pace, feeling a bit tired at the end of the set, but not exhausted.”


Yes, it's a bit more complicated to apply USRPT principals to train for triathlon swimming. In USRPT training for swim-only events, you're getting your optimal conditioning and your specificity (neural patterning) at the same pace. For triathlon, since your race effort isn't such that you'll be exhausted at the end of the swim, your "race pace" is below the pace which best drives the adaptations. So you have to work both separately. That said, I think you can ignore the slower, triathlon race specific pace early in the training block, working it in as you get closer to your targeted event.

IMHO, 10x100 isn't a meaningful USPRT, or even USRPT-like, set for a 2100 yard swim. 10 x 100 at 1:18 pace won't help you be a better 1.2 mile swimmer as much as 20 x 100 @ 1:22 pace or even 20 x 75 1:18 pace.

Great info and thank you again for the suggestions you gave me in the other thread.

Training for an HIM and did the 11x300 yards at expected race pace with :20 rest as you suggested for specificity trading. Did just as you said. Finished up feeling like I had worked but not trashed at all

How does this look for 6x/week training?

Monday Conditioning workout as you outlined above.

Tuesday Specificity training

Wed Not sure

Thursday same as Monday

Friday. Same as Tuesday

Saturday not sure.
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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gary p
Nov 26, 19 10:35
Post #10 of 14 (1665 views)
MrTri123 wrote:

How does this look for 6x/week training?

Monday Conditioning workout as you outlined above.

Tuesday Specificity training

Wed Not sure

Thursday same as Monday

Friday. Same as Tuesday

Saturday not sure.

Not bad, although I might suggest 3x conditioning, 1x specificity per week until you're within a couple months of your event. Don't do the same "conditioning" set all the time, either. Do some 125's, 100's, and 75's; progressively faster as the repeats are shorter. I'd definitely suggest some sprint work (+/-20 x 25) at least once a week on an "I don't know" day to try to nudge your peak power. For true USRPT work, that would be at 100 race pace on ~ 15 seconds rest but, for a HIM triathlete, more rest (~25 seconds) is probably a better idea.
"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gregkeller] [ In reply to ]
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mjp202
Nov 26, 19 11:56
Post #11 of 14 (1641 views)
@SnappingT explains it well on this podcast: https://scientifictriathlon.com/...ming-with-tim-floyd/
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123
Nov 26, 19 12:07
Post #12 of 14 (1632 views)
Perfect!!

Set up my training now like that

Much appreciated.

Thank you
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct
Nov 26, 19 16:08
Post #13 of 14 (1594 views)
SnappingT wrote:
A pure USRPT program isn't that great. Taking the structure of a USRPT set and applying it to your training will be an efficient way to train. I've been implementing race pace training with the team I coach for 5+ years at this point.

I wrote this article on the topic about 5 years ago. My thinking has changed a bit since then, but the article is still good.

What race distance are you training?

Tim

I'm training for a 14 km marathon swimming race. Is it possible to set up a USRPT set on that?
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Re: working some USRPT into swim training questions [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT
Nov 26, 19 16:39
Post #14 of 14 (1582 views)
I’ve trained a lot of marathoners swimmers using a USRPT/Race Pace approach. The longest races were around 50km.

If you have any questions, send me a message.

Tim
http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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