Hey Matt, I think your post came across quite condescending towards everyone involved in women's cycling. I think you could have left it that the depth of field is not quite the same as in men's racing and therefore different tactics can be successful, which I believe everyone gets.

The reason why the depth of field is not the same as in men's racing is overall women's access to sport. We all have countless women friends, who simply can't go for a run at night, or a solo ride on country roads so they have this additional barrier in front of them getting into sport. Furthermore, young women are not glorified for their athletic prowess like young men, so boys in youth sport stay engaged, and a lot of very promising women athletes just drop out and focus on things like academics or social pursuits.

So what you see on the road in terms of depth of field is simply an outcome of overall global society putting barriers in front of women doing sport.

Is women's cycling exciting? To me that is like asking if women's FINA world's swimming is more exciting than men's or an IAAF diamond track meet women's events more exciting than mens. I can personally watch all three individual sports and get equally excited about women's racing as mens (especially in the pool and track).

I think you go back and read your post and just suck it up and apologize that the delivery of your message was just poor. Talking about throwing in low cat men into women's race is just a demeaning slant to your position. It was totally unneccessary. You can do way better than that.

Who says i’m hurt by anything? I’m not here to evangelize about women’s cycling, and i don’t take personal offense that you purportedly couldn’t give a rat’s ass. At most, I make the statement that it can make for compelling entertainment, which happens to be a view opposed to your own view; but I never cherry-pick and spew idiotic stuff like "Vos bested Alaphilippe" at a particular stage finish in 2019, or "AvV beats all but two male riders on Izoard".

The “less said about it" part was a response to the fact for all your protestation in your original post claiming you aren’t interested, you somehow cared enough to spend time to 1) watch the finale and 2) write a paragraph about it. Why you’d feel compelled to "hate-watch" and write a detailed analysis for something for which you profess no interest, only you know.

Besides, one could very well make the argument that an interest based out of disdain is still very much interest, especially when one actively went out of one's way to actually spectate and write about it. Whatever your reaction to women's cycling may be, apathy it isn't.



For the record, I have never said anything to the effect of "[the women] are just as good and capable as the men". You are free to look up my postings elsewhere that specifically argued against cherry picking of data that seemingly showed "[the women] are just as good and capable as the men". If you intended this as a way of addressing sentiments of some, I don't see how that's germane in a debate with me. If instead you presumed that I would take such a stance, that says more about your own debate skills than anything else.

PS. This is the first time i’ve seen this level of circular reasoning in a while.

If only you'd know.. Did you ever downplay Serena Williams vs Raphael Nadal? For now Annemiek is the best female cyclist there is. There might be another one in 2yrs, but saying it's minor league shows me that you truly are uniterested in cycling. You might learn a thing or two getting interested in cycling. For instance tactics: She did exactly the right thing after busting her ass all day for Marianne Vos that couldn't deliver. The other girls played another tactic and lost. Maybe you would even become a better cyclist in the triathlons yourselves when you would observe them cyclists closely. Riding a bike is getting as fast as you can from A to B, not with most power. Cyclists are pretty good at that.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Annemiek a couple of times. If I believe anyone telling me they fractured an elbow it's Annemiek. She doesn't brag, she is sincere, polite and a pleasure to have conversations with. Remember her world championships in Innsbruck? She's ridden it with a fractured patella. If there is one person with an iron will, that is her. Don't be mistaken, she does drop male pro's in training. I know pro and semi-pro riders personally that train with her on regular basis, having a hard time keeping up with her.

Annemiek has my deepest respect, and I totally agree that she at the very least deserves her own topic.

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Jacob

- Owner of Vélofysics; helping athletes beat their version of yesterday -

Going there? Should we ship you a maga hat? You must be fun at parties.

I hear this pathetic argument about men's futbol also. "My kid's junior college team could be the USWNT". How about "nobody fucking asked you". The USMNT just got blanked by Japan and still sucks so we're left cheering for the only ones who win...........the women's national team. Or are left to cheer for another country.

Then cycling..........right, the men's team didn't field an endurance track team for the last Olympics? Phil Gaimon even was almost a team member. Up against the likes of Ganna and crew. Nice.

Would you imagine this to not be a series where a Men's Team wins to get into the Women's Tour, or that a Men's Team gets relegated into the Women's Tour?

Nevermind - I see you said Amateur Men move up to Women's Pro

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Good post.

This is one of the sillier threads I’ve seen in a while.

Women’s sports are often as exciting, if not more, at times, than Men’s. I offer top tier Women’s soccer, ice hockey, volleyball, track and field, figure skating, etc. And cycling!

AvV is a gifted human with one hell of an engine. Was in a race against the top tier finishers. Three days after she crashed hard. And was able to hang on for dear life as a chase drug her back, and then she just sent it while they were recovering from effort and, or plotting their launch. Capitalizing on the fact that no one was going to jump quickly and commit.

And as mentioned by someone in the cycling thread where it was receiving immediate attention, it was one of the most exciting races seen in a while. In that thread, women are given equal standing and are discussed quite frequently.

for my part, i'm deeply impressed at the efficiency with which this thread has approached peak slowtwitch. normally it would take several pages for a discussion to hit all the highlights we've hit here. well done all around!

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Peak ST indeed. Happy to help.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I thought the one about the triathlete getting hit by a car was impressive too in that regard.

[/quote]

There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.

There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.[/quote]
OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances

OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances[/quote]
You're right - Roche's '87 season was phenomenal. I think it would be impossible to win all three in any season.

Back in the old days, though, there were riders who went straight from the Vuelta to the Giro. Merckx did it in 1973 and won both. The big Spanish riders who rode for the Kas team, like Jose Manual Fuente (1st in 72 Vuelta and 2nd in 72 Giro), also did that quite a few times.

You're right - Roche's '87 season was phenomenal. I think it would be impossible to win all three in any season.

Back in the old days, though, there were riders who went straight from the Vuelta to the Giro. Merckx did it in 1973 and won both. The big Spanish riders who rode for the Kas team, like Jose Manual Fuente (1st in 72 Vuelta and 2nd in 72 Giro), also did that quite a few times.[/quote]
I don't know if the point is to compare her accomplishments to those of male riders or not, so that being said...

Aren't these female races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?

quickly

:)

I don't know if the point is to compare her accomplishments to those of male riders or not, so that being said...

Aren't these female races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?[/quote]
That's why I pointed out the Froome example. From July 2017 to July 2018 he did 4 grand tours totalling around 16000km of racing where he got 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd and between the first two grand tours and the second set he sandwiched in a 3rd at the UCI Worlds ITT (losing to Dumoulin and Roglic). The women's grand tours are not three week events, so from a pure apples to apples comparison it is easier to do. But at the end of the day, they are the top races available to women and all the top women are gunning for the prize and lots of things can happen along the way (ex Froome being car doored last weekend in Monaco).

Let's just accept amazing athletic feats for what they are. When Bolt sweeps a Diamond League season we don't worry that it was "only 100m"

Because of UCIs outdated sexist idea that women can't race as far or over as many days as the men, you are correct

Same reason women's CX races are ~2/3 time that men's are [40-50 minutes vs 60-70]

Dipshits

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I'd be surprised if it's purely the UCI at issue here, I don't think women's road cycling is exactly swimming in sponsorship money. Seems like many (most?) of these races only exist via being subsidized from the male side of the sport. I'd guess putting on a 3 week race is a much more daunting financial task than a week long one.

I have a question.

...are you serious?

I genuinely can't tell.

I had the privilege of covering the worlds and van Vleuten's win. That finish was one of the most impressive things I've seen - right up there with Hoy's "opening the door that wasn't there" to win the 2012 keirin world title.

Amid a lot of comments on this thread, this one from tri yoda caught my eye and I'm surprised no-one has really jumped on it ...

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

So, a couple of thoughts ...

1. I'm pretty sure the Dutch and vV have said all the way along that it was a fracture, not a break. I stand to be corrected here, but that's definitely my recollection (bloody media ...).
2. Now full disclosure - I'm no doctor or physio. But I reckon if we took the entire Slowtwitch population, or the pro cycling peloton for that matter (men and women), and gave them a fracture of the elbow - "very minor" or whatever - most probably wouldn't be doing an event three days later. Let alone getting up the Mt Pleasant climb six times, let alone being in a position to catch everyone else in the front bunch napping at the finish, let alone winning the world title.

Annemiek is as hard as a cat's head.

Also - absolutely - the others in that bunch butchered their finish. How in the name of all that is Holy wasn't someone keeping an eye on the one rider among them who everyone knows might do exactly what she did. vV had sat at the back for ages and it was either one of two things - she was cooked, or she had one move up her (bandaged/swollen) sleeve. Too right that Kopecky bashed her handlebar at the finish - she should have up-slapped herself and all. As much as it was an epic win for the Dutchies, it was an epic fail for everyone else.

As for Remco, the lad also might be a half-decent bike rider one day, too ...

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"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009

Did anyone ask her how much it was hurting during the race?

I know the commentators were making a big deal of her not getting out of the saddle, but then she was at times. She didn't look to be wincing or noticeably holding onto the bike oddly, not that I was really looking for it.

I guess hard as nails comes down to how much pain she was in, which may have been substantial or not at all.

Her comment immediately post-race was that it was "hell".

It was an elbow fracture. Enough said.

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"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009

It's not really enough said. Fractures can hurt a lot or not very much at all, not to mention people have different sensitivity to pain. The same injury might be unbearable to one person and not that big of a deal to someone else, it's highly subjective.

If she says it was hell, then sure, call her hard as nails.

For those whose interest is piqued: here's the 2012 video of Hoy's squeeze:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_keqBnfKY7I

The likes of Spratt and Vos et al were also amazed she started with her injury, let alone raced so well.

Enough said.

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"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009

I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin