Hi, I think the issues that people have with Garmin can be summed up by 'the software is buggy and they either take too long to fix bugs or just don't fix them at all'. I have also heard complaints their updates. You buy a device and a year later they stop issuing updates for it. For example the Edge 530 is getting updates that the Fenix 5 plus is not (which doesn't make sense to a lot of people) but they were still providing updates to the 935 up until recently. Wahoo is still updating the Bolt (2 years old) and the Element (even older). There were also lots of complaints about the battery doors on the Vector 3/3s and then they told people to put baby oil on the battery door (if I recall correctly for another issue) which drove people crazy. The fact that they took so long to support Bluetooth sensors was annoying (not for me but for others) and you still can't configure an Edge from phone or store your settings easily in case you confronted with the dreaded reset advice from them.

That being said I was skeptical when I got the Vector 3 (Black Friday sale) but so far so good and since that Wahoo Roam was underwhelming its back to an Edge for me and maybe a 945 later this year to upgrade by Fenix 3 (will wait until Black Friday again).

Tizzle

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

I have a Fenix 5x Plus, Edge 520, HRM Run, HRM Tri, and a Garmin Speed sensor on one bike. I have often wondered why a lot of people love to hate Garmin so much. I have not had many problems out of my equipment from Garmin. It is expensive, but so is everything else. I recently replaced the battery in my HRM Run and a few weeks later it quit working. Garmin replaced it under warranty. In my view, that makes some of the high cost worth it. The software can be buggy. I often have to turn my Edge 520 off and back on to get it synced to Connect. However I routinely see improvements with updates, although sometimes I wish they were quicker to come out.

I did open Garmin Express this morning after reading that the Fenix 5 Plus would not be getting the recent update, and I have software version 7.10 waiting to be installed on my Fenix (maybe this is different for a 5x vs a normal 5? idk).

It think it's important to remember, for me at least, that all of these things are tools.. including this forum. I cannot expect any device I'm wearing to make me better or perfectly measure all of my physical metrics and spell out a plan to beat a record or go out and run/bike/swim a PR. That's still up to me, but I think being able to look at the data over differing time periods with small changes in diet, sleep, motivation, etc and seeing what affects all of those related activities have on athletic performance leads to a better understanding of how to get my body ready to perform at its top level.

Garmin has been as close to perfect, for me, that I can expect from hardware / software that I use for triathlon

If they were cheaper I’d buy more :) Only have the vectors, a couple bike computers and a few tri watches. When I’ve had issues, their CS team has exceeded my expectations each time

My interpretation of the term "ecosystem" is a collection of products and technologies that when used together are better than their point solution selves. For example, Garmin has special features if you use their head unit with lights,radar, and power meter pedals. They have a three-tier platform (device, mobile app, & web app) for viewing and analyzing data. They have an app marketplace for custom apps on devices. If you use a Garmin activity tracker, it will share its info to your Garmin watch. That is their ecosystem.

If people are honest, Garmin is the best ecosystem in the fitness space. Wahoo's ecosystem is their integration of KICKR, Climb, and Headwind. And, their head unit has some direct control over the trainers, but few people probably use that. Wahoo only has a 2-tier app platform-- no web app-- so they are a little behind there.

As a few noted, some people may just be complaining about device issues. I have seen countless firmware complaints on the Internet, but I have had almost no issues in the last decade+ of Garmin device use across many different products. My Garmin 305 fell apart after several years, but that was the first real GPS watch. My 910XT lost its barometer and speaker after a few years. My 735XT has been close to perfect. My 520 has only rebooted 3 times during a ride in three years of use. I have never lost a file from a workout (except when I let the battery die). My friends with Garmin devices simple wore them out. Garmin has had some stinkers, like their Vector pedals (IMHO). So, I just use PowerTap and now Assioma instead. And I hated the 820 with the heat of a thousand furnaces.

I actually think there's a bit of a double standard. Garmin has definitely not always been the best about designing intuitive software and has had their share of bugs. But as a Wahoo Elmnt user for the last couple of years (now going back to Garmin), they've had their share of bad bugs and annoyances as well. Probably the worst was when I sometimes couldn't download courses due to a bug with handling different wifi networks. I think a lot of the criticisms of the Roam are actually equally valid criticisms of the original design that were soft pedaled a bit due to the desire to praise the new guy. And the original Elmnt was a bit of a mess when it was first released, by the time they got the Bolt out they'd sorted out the worst of it. Wahoo has done some things well, such as the configuration of the device through the phone app, but some of their touted intuitiveness is really just due to a simpler, less feature oriented device.

My 520 was near perfect. I updated the firmware, and all of the sudden I would burn through my entire battery in a 100k race while using maps. It wasn’t like that before, but garmin said everyone experiencing that was wrong.

I switched to an 820. The battery life was still bad, but at least the power save mode could get me through the races I was doing. The main problem with the 820 is the touch screen. It’s terrible.

I got vector 3s pedals. The power numbers were way off, even when calibrated every ride. They would drift super quick. On the plus side, I could do over 1000 watts for minutes at times. I must be super strong. Garmin sent me a new set. Same issue. They sent me a 3rd set and I sold them.

For me, the bottom line was I felt like garmins quality control on the software and hardware side dropped substantially. Rather than spending more money on products that may or may not work out of the box, or may or may not drop in quality a year after purchase, I decided to switch out of their ecosystem and jump over to wahoo. The wahoo hasn’t been perfect, but I’m way more happy with the quality over what I had with my last 3 garmin products.

The thing that kills me is that setting up the devices (screens, sensors, etc) is still a matter of a million clicks in a thousand sub-menus, with ambiguous names. Leave that as an option, but give me a way to use my phone (and desktop, because not everything should have to be on the phone) to much more easily set up my favored screens and fields. And if I could make backups of those screen settings for when support tells me to reset to factory...

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

the problem with the ecosystem is that its not really - the phone app and website are very limited tools, most of the setup and value-add information is on the device only. garmin do this at least in part to ensure that you buy a new device to get the features, also so that the app/site don't have to cater for so much detail of every different device. the problem though is that as users we want to get these functions on more usable platforms.

the ecosystem also doesn't support users of multiple garmin devices as well as it could - i do a tri with my FR935 on my wrist and my edge on my bike, i end up with duplicate rides. i haven't found the "physio trueup" to work in its supposed merging of my workload/recovery. i'm not sure if they yet combine steps between devices yet as i've stuck with fitbit for 24x7 tracking due in part to their better app dashboard... it all just doesn't work together quite as well as it could.

at the device level, i've personally had 2 top-end garmin watches fail me in less than a year and received disappointing support both times.

For me, nothing. I don't understand the complaint.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

My first Garmin product was the Forerunner 305. I used it quite a bit. The firmware was great, the physical equipment not so much. I don't recall ever having firmware issues, however, it was the buttons on the side that eventually stopped working. That was within warranty period. The replacement unit - same thing happened and then I was told it was out of warranty.

I then bought a Garmin Edge 510. I was quite happy with it really. Firmware was ok - every once in a while it would glitch. Physical equipment was ok - touch screen wasn't all that great especially in winter - but was ok. I ended up chipping part of the quarter turn plastic on the back of the unit which rendered it unable to attach to mounts. (yes this one was 100% my fault)

Next was a Garmin Edge 520. Firmware-wise this unit has been terrible. Multiple times it has rebooted during a ride. Had to be hard-reset multiple times (losing data, setup, etc). Quirky times when it would take a few tries to get the unit to start charging. Just this week I had my final straw. The unit is currently charged at 70 something percent. It won't charge. It won't connect to multiple computers via multiple cables that I've tried. I've tried doing the lap+start/stop thing that is explained online. I'm hoping I can keep the unit charged until I have my next unit in hand which is.....

I have a Bryton 530 coming in the mail any day now. Hoping I have more luck with that brand.

Beats me, I don't have a problem with their "ecosystem." It's a little quirky I guess, but that's it.

I have one Garmin, which I use regularly. I had a suunto before that. One of the biggest differences is that I can use the garmin w/strava and very rarely have to use garmin express or garmin connect or anything. W/suunto I was always having to wrangle w/movescount.

I do wish the actual GPS on the garmin was more accurate.

My biggest beef has actually been with their hardware. The HRMs in my experience are very temperamental; I had three-in-a-row fail on me inside a year. I now use the Wahoo Tickr with my Garmin devices.

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29 years and counting

THIS. I frankly avoid a lot of technology because I just can't deal with interfaces.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

My biggest frustration is with the syncing of workouts. I have some old school stuff. 920Xt and Edge 820. Both randomly will not upload workouts and often spend ages farting about with them.

Not enough for me to leave them though, Currently eyeing up a Fenix 5.

At its core, Garmin is a hardware/device company; as such, its goal is to sell you more devices or have you upgrade frequently. This should be instructive in how they approach the 3 key areas of their business: hardware, software, and the ecosystem/platform.

On the hard front, I think they are probably the leader in this space, but that's because they really want to drive the upgrade cycle. Do I need to grade to 830 when I already have the 520+, or how about the 945 over 735? A lot depends on when you enter their product cycle or the price point. But at least they are making more and better hardware. Speaking of better hardware, I think they could use better display and touch screen technologies.

On the software (on the device) front, I think Garmin at this point has done just enough to keep the hardware functioning well. It wasn't always so, and I am sure we remember all the early software issues of, say 5-10 years ago. I see some underlying software changes in the last a few years and they seem to be more stable and handle multitasking better, but the new software seems to consume more battery on older devices. Overall, I give their current software a passing grade, but see the promise.

It's in the ecosystem front that Garmin's failing, I believe. The Garmin Connect portal, the IQ apps, etc, they all feel a bit of kluged together with no definitive roadmap. I know creating a platform business and foster an ecosystem is hard even with the number of devices they have out there, but it probably speaks to Garmin as a hardware company and how they view the usefulness of an ecosystem to their business of selling more devices.

One of the things I am sure they are looking into is service or subscription based business, a la Whoop.

They want you to upload everything to their website and use their services. They own your data.

I bought my first Garmin device (an Edge 530) last year. Since I mostly wanted it for field testing, I was dismayed that Garmin does not support downloading the raw data. I have to upload to Golden Cheetah first, then download from there. And somewhere along the way both the torque data and the lap markers disappear. I haven't found a way to fix that.

The operation of the unit is quite clunky. All those little hard to press buttons and endless un-intuitive menus. Try marking laps while wearing gloves! It has more features than I need, which is part of the problem. And the battery life is poor. The Joule is better in many ways. The 530 has better GPS and seems to suffer fewer dropouts, which is nice.

+1
I use a Garmin 920xt, which has held up well, so I'm not anti-Garmin. But the beeping submenu thing drives me nuts. My first GPS watch was a Timex Global Trainer over 10 years ago and I could configure the screens and settings from my desktop computer and just send the command to the watch.

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<The Dew Abides>

My complaint is different and more - fuzzy. I've had mostly good experiences with multiple garmin devices - FR305, FR920. But horrible experiences with others - Vector 3, I'm looking at you. But that's not the real problem. Garmin is on a treadmill cycle of new devices that too rapidly leave *very expensive* and quite new devices behind the update curve. Just bought the flagship device for an unbelievably high price? Want the new software tools we've just released on the newest flagship device? Well, too bad. Although your device is capable of an upgrade, buy the new device b/c we're not updating your old (1 yr old) sh1tty device. THATS the issue for me. We are paying $500 for a device that could be updated, but is not b/c we're expected to buy the updated replacement $600 device in a year. Sorry, if I could leave the Garmin ecosystem, I would. I have access to a Suunto device - pretty slick. I owned a few wonderful Polar devices before leaving at the start of the 'we promise that this device will be great in a year with updates' scenario. I plan to use my FR920 until it's dead. We'll see then. But I'm disinclined to be part of the Garmin upgrade treadmill team. If I'm still thinking about Garmin, I'd buy a refurb from the outlet store that is a generation (or two) behind the current offering...

Edit to fix a couple of typos.

Can't you connect the unit to a PC and locate the workout .fit file and then download the .fit file directly..?

It needs to be in .csv format so I can work with it, and Garmin doesn't do that anymore.

So to summarize, you are complaining that Garmin does not convert the native HTML file to a 1980s-era file format?

If you'd had a device fail, and live outside the USA, you'd know EXACTLY why people complain.

- slow (or zero) responses to problems with hardware . Emails and msges go into a black hole.

- take ages like 45 mins the last time I tried) to get the phone answered.

- Won't recognise software problems are real, even when multiple people have them.

- some past 'updates' have made more faults than they have fixed.

And of course Connect designed to make sure its hard to export MY data to anywhere else.

I have an older garmin edge 800 on my bike and a 2 year old Fenix 5 Saphire watch. I am quite happy with both devices. I don't care much about updates because the device works just fine for me the way i bought it. I have had no issues yet with altitude meters or anything. I use the watch for logging my workouts. After my workout my data gets automatically uploaded to connect and strava as soon as i am within range of my home WIFI.
The only gripe i have is about the Garmin Connect app on my phone. It keeps asking me for permissions to use my agenda, text msg, contacts et cetera. I switched all that functionality off in the app because i don't want to use it and Garmin has no buisness in my agenda. Still the app keeps reminding me that it wants permission. I guess as long as i keep choosing the deny option it will keep reminding me. That is kinda annoying. Other then that i am quite happy with Garmin. I have put both my edge and my watch to the test and they withstood perfectly.

HTML? I hope you mean XML or YAML or something, as HTML would be a horrendous choice for data storage.

CSV is a fine choice for storing time series data, however. Age does not diminish that. The "byte" is a very old storage format.