It's not really a difference to be worked out; i.e., this didn't happen due to an argument. It's just a business model that doesn't rely on USAT for any service. Therefore, Lifetime doesn't require you to pay for a one-day license, meaning they don't remit any proceeds to USAT, and therefore their races are not scored. If you look at one of their registration forms, they don't ask you for your USAT number ... that's how you know the business model hasn't changed. And assuming that each race in their series draws at least 500 athletes without an annual license, then USAT is losing 10 races x 500 athletes x $15 USAT one day fee = $75,000. Given that Lifetime has some pretty big races in their portfolio, I wouldn't be surprised if USAT isn't losing more than $100,000 per year.

Edit from Lifetime FAQs:

Q: Do you have to be a USAT member to register?
A: No. USA Triathlon Membership is not required for Life Time Tri Series race participants during the 2019 season.

I think USAT also thinks it punishes those races too by not including them in rankings, using the stick rather than the carrot. But in the end, the only ones punished are the ones who are the participants, the ones that actually follow the rankings. I bet for a lot of people those races are either their 3rd race that gets them ranked in the first place, or it is one that would be of the highest 3 for total points.

SO the only people pissed off are the actual participants, not either organization. Perhaps the carrot approach might one day get them back in the fold. Certainly building taller walls is not going to do it..

Just curious but what is USAT suppose to do in the event when an race simply doesn't want to sanction itself under USAT? Still rank the race anyways to help it's members who do, do the race? Sorta a "looking after it's members" approach...take one for the team to help it's members?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

There's more to it than just money when it comes to governance. Agreeing to a sanction means you're agreeing to specific requirements under the powers of an NGB. A non-sanctioned race is basically just out there on its own. Since it's an individual sport you can do it with your own officials I suppose provided you've done the education systems.

We've had this discussion previously...USATF doesn't make me own a USATF Membership to run a marathon. But every race I've done in Arizona is USATF Sanctioned...also, sanctioning for road races apparently doesn't get you appropriate distance either.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Right, but my point or question was and it goes to IM. IM doens't need USAT sanctioning to work. It could easily tell USAT to piss off, but I think it's sorta an "mutual agreement" that, "hey we are the biggest races in the world, it's in the best interest of EVERYONE to also partner with the governing bodies, regardless if we actually need it".

But in this instance when LTF is basically saying "well do it better", what actual recourse can USAT do? It pretty much has to stand down and "lick it's wounds". So my question to monty is, in this case imo LTF has "hand", USAT simply was going for the ride until they finally got booted off.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Still rank the race anyways to help it's members who do, do the race? Sorta a "looking after it's members" approach.//

YES

There should be a bar one has to meet, like # of registrants, and a couple other basic things, but after that, if they submit results in a manner that all other races do to get ranked, then rank them. Its not like there is some magic to USAT sanctioning and quality of the race. Lets face it, the 95% reason all RD's sanction is for the insurance. If you dont need that, then there is not much for you to be pushed that direction. My point is why not bring them into the fold, at first using rankings. Then maybe some other small point, and then one day they might just feel obliged to join the group.

The point is that it's a penalty and meant to protect the members of the Federation.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I'm not sure what your referencing. I thought it's pretty apparent that in this instance and like in IM's instance- neither IM or LTF "need" USAT. It seems it's more an "gentleman's agreement" with IM/USAT for the betterment of all parties. Whereas I see LTF as not really caring for all parties because it's not really that important of races. I mean they sell out a ton of races to also work with USAT when they can simply do it themselves and have the structure to handle it, but they aren't the "face" of the sport like IM is. So there's no real incentive for them to work with USAT and it seems like USAT is fine with being sent to the sidelines on those races as it really doesn't have any hand in that decision (other than doing what monty suggesting and gifting the participants the race tally). It has what less than 10 races this applies to?

ETA: So I guess what I'm saying is if LTF is giving USAT the middle finger, USAT can't really recourse really other than gifting the participants the race result. So in this relationship, LTF dictates the terms, not USAT. So when they tell off USAT, USAT basically can only scurry back to the corner with it's tail between it's legs. I guess they could give the sanctioning for free, but I'm guessing LTF has too many smart people to understand that even free relationship with USAT doesn't really help them all that much. It would certainly benefit USAT as they could then get all the reg fee's back. But LTF probaly has enough really smart people in power that they are like "yeah right".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Please correct me, but doesn't that mean that Lifetime events don't have to follow USAT rules, such as positioning violations? Do most of the USAT members who care about the rankings want races where USAT rules aren't enforced to count in the rankings?

Yes but I think what they simply do is take the USAT rulebook, scratch out "USAT RULES" put LTF and then use that as the rules of the road. But your point is also why you really cant fault USAT for not scoring said race.

So it's kinda like they are damned if they do, damned if they don't in this particular scenario.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I was wondering why I didn't see this event show up on my USAT. Learn something new everyday. Guess that's why I didn't get the nationals invite this year for Olympic AG.

And it's still a protection for the membership. Yeah, it's a middle finger, who cares. The powers of the NGB are to set minimum standards for competition. Do they charge a fee? Yeah. If Lifetime doesn't want to agree to those terms and protections then they can shove off. This falls under the powers of an NGB granted to them by the US Government.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

What's an protection for the membership? I'm just not following anything your saying. Sorry

ETA: Are you saying USAT sanctioning is an protection of the membership? I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'm simply saying LTF doesn't need USAT as it has the capabilities (mainly the insurance structure) to handle the events on their own. Thus while it sucks for the racers to then miss out on a scored race- we can't really fault that on USAT. Look to LTF for that, not USAT (to monty's point).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

having done a LTF race last year that was formerly USAT sanctioned I couldn't tell the difference really. Actually scratch that.

I got a link from the LTF race to some youtube videos going over the rules. Other than that there wasn't a difference imo.

My guess is if WTC decided to self insure or get a different carrier USAT would cease to exist in <3 years or at least in its current form.

If you look at their recently released Strategic Plan(feb 2019) this is the only line that really talks about AG athletes:

CONSTITUENT ENGAGEMENT. Deliver value and enhance experiences for athletes and key constituents

Then under this they have A-E bullet points. None deal with athletes really. They do have something in there about increasing officials.

Other than getting ranked, if you care about that, that's really the only difference you're going to notice.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yes, Life Time Fitness can survive without USAT. However, as a service to their consumer so that their consumers can use the race towards USAT Rankings they need to make a deal on sanctioning with USAT. This falls within the powers of an NGB granted to it by the laws of this country. There's also a difference between Sanctioning, non-sanctioning, and banning a race promoter as well.

Although I find this whole thread weird, Life Time used to run a pro circuit and cutting it had a tremendous adverse affect on many folks livelihoods.

One way for this sport to die overnight is for the federation to go kaput.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I remember listening to a podcast interview with Rocky Harris within days after he became CEO.

In the interview he was very well aware USAT was not doing anything to really capture the imagination and also serve their members, and he wanted to change that.

I'm personally not aware of anything but have there been any big changes that help in that regards?