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the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics)
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... so I came across some interesting factoids today, about the Mavic i0 700 5-spoke front wheel:


"This wheel has won more medals than any other wheel on all the cycle-racing tracks of the world."


"At London the iO won 90% of the medals in the velodrome."

It seems clear to me from the following photo that nearly every Olympic team agrees it's the fastest wheel:




With those credentials, Mavic could just put a quick-release on it and make a killing in triathlon, right?




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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately there is no brake track.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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Where are you citing from? Also note that some of the five-spoke wheels in the picture aren't Mavic but FFWD. Regardless, it's futile to just assume that things that work well in a velodrome also work for TT's/triathlon. We also don't run our tires at 180+ PSI like they do.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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No brake track, tubular only, €2700

Yep - I can see how it´d be a big seller in triathlon.

Now, there was a Mavic trispoke in the 90s that made its way onto the roads, the 3G - I think Boardman used it for his TdF time trials.

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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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I used the iO for some races in 2009 and I was amazed at how fast the wheel felt. A little sensitive to cross winds, but it ranks very high in my personal all-time wheel ranking...



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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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3 reasons it gets used

1. Mavic give them to olympic teams
2. Everyone uses them
3. Stiffer (this does matter to sprinters)

Not good on translational drag, but as a low spoke wheel it may gain a bit back on the rotational drag front.


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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [Barchettaman] [ In reply to ]
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Barchettaman wrote:
No brake track, tubular only, €2700

Yep - I can see how it´d be a big seller in triathlon.

Now, there was a Mavic trispoke in the 90s that made its way onto the roads, the 3G - I think Boardman used it for his TdF time trials.


No brake track...No problem...Just adapt it for disc brakes...you know they're better!
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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I did some races on the road with an IO. No brake track wasn't optimal, but it wasn't much worse than many carbon wheels either. Primary benefit is their stiffness on the track. A Hed trispoke is very fast, too, but more flexy on the track. The IO is about as stiff as you can get up front, without running a full disc.






jackie11111 wrote:

... so I came across some interesting factoids today, about the Mavic i0 700 5-spoke front wheel:


"This wheel has won more medals than any other wheel on all the cycle-racing tracks of the world."


"At London the iO won 90% of the medals in the velodrome."

It seems clear to me from the following photo that nearly every Olympic team agrees it's the fastest wheel:




With those credentials, Mavic could just put a quick-release on it and make a killing in triathlon, right?



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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
3 reasons it gets used

1. Mavic give them to olympic teams
2. Everyone uses them
3. Stiffer (this does matter to sprinters)

Not good on translational drag, but as a low spoke wheel it may gain a bit back on the rotational drag front.

Mavic actually pays (or at least used to pay) at least some of the leading track squads to use their wheels.

Back in 2007, I helped Colby Pearce test his Mavic and Zipp 808 wheels on the ADT track. There wasn't any difference in his CdA, but his Crr was sky high with both wheels, despite both being fitted with the same high quality track tubular. After investigating various explanations, we concluded that 200+ psi was excessive even on a wood track.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [bluntandy] [ In reply to ]
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bluntandy wrote:
Unfortunately there is no brake track.

If you're using brakes, you are doing it wrong.....

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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yaw angle doesn;t mean much on an indoor track. If i remember right, the 5 spoke and tri spokes performance falls off quick if there's any sort of cross wind.


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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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jackie11111 wrote:

... so I came across some interesting factoids today, about the Mavic i0 700 5-spoke front wheel:
"This wheel has won more medals than any other wheel on all the cycle-racing tracks of the world."
"At London the iO won 90% of the medals in the velodrome."
It seems clear to me from the following photo that nearly every Olympic team agrees it's the fastest wheel:

Just because someone won with one wheel or the other doesn't mean one wheel is the fastest.
Following your analogy that same wheel is the biggest looser out of all the wheels, if 90% people ride them than means most of them will loose, so the same wheel lose the biggest # of times.

Or local crit champ rides alu frame and some alu hoops according to your logic alu frames are the fastest...
What exactly track event you had in mind? In track racing aero doesn't matter as much as skills and big legs. In Tri aero, maters much more than on track,
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt those track riders actually tested the wheel. There's too much tradition or superstition or bro science in cycling to take seriously the fact that 'everyone is using' a wheel or a frame or whathaveyou.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [bluntandy] [ In reply to ]
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bluntandy wrote:
Unfortunately there is no brake track.


Am I imagining things, or do I see a brake track on the front wheel of the BMC TimeMachine and the Cervelo P6?

I did note the lack of a Mavic logo though on both - Does FarSports or CarbonZone or someone already sell this wheel in proper road form (meaning a brake track, clincher, quick release)? If so I bet it's pretty affordable.


.
Last edited by: jackie11111: Jun 27, 16 9:45
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately the opposite is true on these wheels..they are average at low yaw and extremely awesome at high yaw.. In fact, the iO is THE fastest non-disc I've ever seen in the wind tunnel for angles greater than 20. At lower yaw, it's essentially equal to something like an 808.

Similar to Coggan's story about Colby Pearce, we did some studies with the Aussie track team a few years back, they along with GB were the only teams open to non-Mavic products because they could afford to walk away from the money..and they found the iO and 808 to be essentially equal with the 808 better in some circumstances, but the coaches felt that it would be a major mental disadvantage to the riders to be on a different product than everybody else. One coach told me, 'if a rider does a bad time on that wheel (iO) then he did a bad time, if he does a bad time on your wheel, it's because of the wheel.' For track at this level, I sort of had to agree with him!

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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]
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sebo2000 wrote:

Following your analogy that same wheel is the biggest looser out of all the wheels, if 90% people ride them than means most of them will loose, so the same wheel lose the biggest # of times.

haha - very true -

sebo2000 wrote:
In track racing aero doesn't matter as much as skills and big legs. In Tri aero, maters much more than on track,

whoa now - I'd say aero matters more in track racing than in triathlon - The track sprinters hit something like 50 mph and it comes down to inches in nearly every race - absolutely any tiny reduction in Cd matters.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]
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sebo2000 wrote:
In Tri aero, maters much more than on track,

Whoa. There's probably no more pure need for aero than individual pursuit. And all the other events aren't far behind. At 35 MPH+ aero drag is all-consuming.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
Unfortunately the opposite is true on these wheels..they are average at low yaw and extremely awesome at high yaw.. In fact, the iO is THE fastest non-disc I've ever seen in the wind tunnel for angles greater than 20. At lower yaw, it's essentially equal to something like an 808.

Similar to Coggan's story about Colby Pearce, we did some studies with the Aussie track team a few years back, they along with GB were the only teams open to non-Mavic products because they could afford to walk away from the money..and they found the iO and 808 to be essentially equal with the 808 better in some circumstances, but the coaches felt that it would be a major mental disadvantage to the riders to be on a different product than everybody else. One coach told me, 'if a rider does a bad time on that wheel (iO) then he did a bad time, if he does a bad time on your wheel, it's because of the wheel.' For track at this level, I sort of had to agree with him!

As long as you are discussing testing for "back in the day" (and you don't work for Zipp anymore) could you tell us about the Zipp testing of the solid spoked wheels and the issue with the high pressure pulse that occurs as the spoke passes between the fork blades? I seem to remember hearing that this was the reason Zipp didn't continue to pursue solid spoked wheels.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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So before my time at Zipp, they made a 3 spoke..actually the whole wheel progression went disc, 3 spoke, spoked deep section rim..which is surprising to people. The 3 spoke was initially looked at as more of a disc with cutouts to allow for better handling. In the mid 90's testing was done that showed the performance of these wheels was diminished in frames and forks.

I went to the tunnel in 2002 in preparation for a USPS team test and and looked at this quite extensively. We found that of the out of production Zipp, the Hed/Dupont 3 spoke, Mavic iO and Mavic 3G, the 3G was the best performing in the bike in terms of aero. The Hed 3 was best in wattage to spin, and all 3 of them suffered 2-5 watts of translational or rotational drag when placed in a fork or frame compared to their wheel only performance. The guys at the tunnel suggested we use sound pressure equipment to look at the contribution, and we found a good 1-2 (maybe more, hard to remember..) watts of sound pressure lost to those pulses of air when the blade suddenly cuts through the fork legs. Doing the math, many of those forks had the air-space between blades diminished by a third when the blade of the wheel cut through. We ended up building a quick and dirty fork concept out of Indy Car A-Arm strut that had 100mm fork crown and parallel fork legs. It looked goofy and was terrible to ride because it wasn't stiff, but as of 2 years ago when I left Zipp, it was the fastest fork we'd ever seen in the tunnel. It also notably diminished the noise from these types of wheels AND improved aero in testing. However, by then we were on to the 808 which was way faster than anything we'd tested previously and really from then on, just never looked back at the composite spoked wheels.

I will say that composite spoked wheels really look great, and I think are loved by pros as they not only look awesome, but sound cool and feel fast as they tend to be pretty harsh vertically. We went through a whole 3 days of testing trying to convince Alberto Contador to ride the 808 as he insisted on riding the 3 spoke and it was like a scene from a Monty Python movie..he'd go out and do test loops on both wheels and every time come in saying 'see I am faster on the 3 spoke' and every time he had put out more watts on that wheel..this happened multiple times and finally he says, 'yes, but I do not trust this 'data' I know what I feel...' and that was that. Like all of us, those guys like to feel fast and feel like they look fast!

I haven't tested anything since 2013, so I have no idea where this stands today. I see many companies going to much wider fork spacings and also the composite spoked wheels are evolving..so I'm sure it's very interesting!

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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [snaaijert] [ In reply to ]
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snaaijert wrote:
Where are you citing from?

Similar text appears on several bike retailer web sites for this wheel (R&A cycles, Chain Reaction, etc), but Olympic stats are stats - I assume those are easy to verify.

Anyway, here's another convincing photo of 5-spoke supr5macy if you aren't into numbers. Does anyone have a lead on where to get the non-branded road version?


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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
So before my time at Zipp, they made a 3 spoke..actually the whole wheel progression went disc, 3 spoke, spoked deep section rim..which is surprising to people. The 3 spoke was initially looked at as more of a disc with cutouts to allow for better handling. In the mid 90's testing was done that showed the performance of these wheels was diminished in frames and forks.

I went to the tunnel in 2002 in preparation for a USPS team test and and looked at this quite extensively. We found that of the out of production Zipp, the Hed/Dupont 3 spoke, Mavic iO and Mavic 3G, the 3G was the best performing in the bike in terms of aero. The Hed 3 was best in wattage to spin, and all 3 of them suffered 2-5 watts of translational or rotational drag when placed in a fork or frame compared to their wheel only performance. The guys at the tunnel suggested we use sound pressure equipment to look at the contribution, and we found a good 1-2 (maybe more, hard to remember..) watts of sound pressure lost to those pulses of air when the blade suddenly cuts through the fork legs. Doing the math, many of those forks had the air-space between blades diminished by a third when the blade of the wheel cut through. We ended up building a quick and dirty fork concept out of Indy Car A-Arm strut that had 100mm fork crown and parallel fork legs. It looked goofy and was terrible to ride because it wasn't stiff, but as of 2 years ago when I left Zipp, it was the fastest fork we'd ever seen in the tunnel. It also notably diminished the noise from these types of wheels AND improved aero in testing. However, by then we were on to the 808 which was way faster than anything we'd tested previously and really from then on, just never looked back at the composite spoked wheels.

I will say that composite spoked wheels really look great, and I think are loved by pros as they not only look awesome, but sound cool and feel fast as they tend to be pretty harsh vertically. We went through a whole 3 days of testing trying to convince Alberto Contador to ride the 808 as he insisted on riding the 3 spoke and it was like a scene from a Monty Python movie..he'd go out and do test loops on both wheels and every time come in saying 'see I am faster on the 3 spoke' and every time he had put out more watts on that wheel..this happened multiple times and finally he says, 'yes, but I do not trust this 'data' I know what I feel...' and that was that. Like all of us, those guys like to feel fast and feel like they look fast!

I haven't tested anything since 2013, so I have no idea where this stands today. I see many companies going to much wider fork spacings and also the composite spoked wheels are evolving..so I'm sure it's very interesting!


Very interesting and thanks for sharing. This makes me think the slotted forks that Cobb and Ridley make, that are designed to reduce the pressure between the fork legs probably work ok at addressing this issue. However, any improvement the slots make likely isn't captured in typical wind tunnel data. Did you ever see this tested?
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Fascinating, thanks Josh.
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [jackie11111] [ In reply to ]
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jackie11111 wrote:
Anyway, here's another convincing photo of 5-spoke supr5macy if you aren't into numbers. Does anyone have a lead on where to get the non-branded road version?

The picture of the BMC bike is of Morten Tilquist, he's also a user here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?username=Tillquist

I think he also makes, or has made, some custom garmin mounts so I'm sure you could reach out to him to inquire about where he got the wheel. Here's his website: http://tillquist.dk/ It says it's a Mavic iO though, so maybe he just rides the wheel without a brake track?
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Re: the FASTEST front wheel is a Mavic 5-spoke!!! (pics) [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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The slotted forks can work and I've seen that in the tunnel, but they don't work as well as just getting the legs away from the wheel. Also, there are quite a few variants of the slotted fork, some work and some don't, though I haven't seen that tested in years, so hard to say where the advancement in that space is today compared to more traditional designs. Structurally it's not easy to get that gap large enough to act as a vent and not add to the drag were air is trying to force itself into the slot-gapTrek was onto it first and seems that quite a number of the newer bikes are going toward more gap between the wheel and fork legs due to wider rims and possibly for this reason as well..hard to say.

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