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some thoughts on enclaves
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having read a few of the recent posts on the decline of american endurance sports, the importance of enclaves, etc, i thought i'd throw out a few ideas.

dan mentioned that he thought the success of guys like brett sutton and col stewart was due primarily to the environments they have created and not to some coaching knowledge. i would say this is only partly true. first of all, creating the appropriate training environment within the enclave is an important coaching skill. second, in any sport there are tons of coaches who have the same knowledge. however, knowing how to apply that knowledge on a consistent basis seems to be accomplished less easily than you would think. i see way too many swim coaches trying to make things more complicated than it needs to be. i also see a lot who misinterpret basic concepts. perhaps the biggest mistake is getting caught up in habits. people are creatures of habit and many coaches tend to do what they've always done or what was done with them instead of applying any kind of analytical skills to the situation.

i can point out a great enclave that's been a huge failure performance wise. for the past 5 years or so it seems that almost all of the top us short course talented has been concentrated at the otc in colorado springs. not much in the way of results there. on the other hand, the us women have been spread out in different environments that best suit their needs and they are clearly the best in the world.

so simply creating an enclave is not enough. are there benefits to such a situation? absolutely. but you must have the right coach behind it and the right mix of athletes to make it work.

brent
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Re: some thoughts on enclaves [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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"the past 5 years or so it seems that almost all of the top us short course talent has been concentrated at the otc in colorado springs."

i think i mentioned this in my article. guys like andy potts and joe umphenour are doing quite well relative to their own historic speed by training together in colorado springs. but it's like a bunch of 2:16 marathoners training together. they might spur each other on to run 2:12, but can they get to 2:07? this is my one criticism of colorado springs. yes, michelle blessing and libby burrell are there to help coach them, but perhaps if these guys lived in boulder they might have access to training with a lot more top talent, both in individual sports and in triathlon.

but it's not just being in an enclave, it's the ability to take advantage of that by spurring, almost daring, each other onto bigger and more outrageous training feats. there isn't enough outrageous training going on. in the old days, used to be molina would say, "hey, let's all ride 700 miles in 5 days from point to point in colorado." and they'd all do it. a little less science, a little more courage, that's what's sometimes missing i think.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: some thoughts on enclaves [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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I'll pitch in a little bit here as well. I'm in Austin, which is considered to be a pretty good hotspot for triathlon right now, more for age groupers than elites. I see things as continuing on the upswing as well as far as sheer numbers and participation go. We've got a lot of good athletes, but we're certainly not a Boulder or a San Diego in terms of quality. Jamie Cleveland, James Bonney, Chann, heck I'll throw myself in there, Not to mention a lot of guys who can run 29 for the 10k or swim trials times, etc but aren't multisport athletes.

I've been trying to get a group of guys together to run, a good group of guys that are going to pound each other into the ground two or three times a week. It hasn't taken off. Why? Because on an age group or even sub-elite level (Olympic distance), everyone seems to be doing there own thing. There aren't enough 'dares' going around. It's seldom that athletes have a common coach, unless it's like at the OTC, and that is where guys like Col Stewart and Brett Sutton have had success. They've got their elites and sub elites doing the same workouts day in and day out. They've created a system where someone (maybe the coach), throws out a dare, and they've got a group to do it.

That's the biggest difference between triathlon now and then. When Allen, Pigg, Molina, etc were racing, it was about challenging one another to get to the next level in racing and training. Some of that has been lost, probably due to all of the science. I'm not advocating going backwards, but it wouldn't hurt to take a small step back. BUT, in the end, as is the case with me trying to get a group of guys together to run, it's mostly up to the athletes to do so. Some of it falls on the shoulders of the coaches as well to try to spur their athletes on to go run with faster guys or to even go out and recruit some of those 29 minute runners to drag their athletes around, but it's not happening. So what's the answer? Good question, but I think that Brent, Dan, and myself agree that the 2:16 marathoners need to find some 2:06 guys to train with if the really want to get below 2:10. Just racing with them a few times a year won't quite do it. So, maybe I'll go find a couple of those 29ers. If I can only hang for a couple of miles out of 10, that'll be a faster 2 miles than I would have run on my own.

-Brandon


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: some thoughts on enclaves [-Tex] [ In reply to ]
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That's the biggest difference between triathlon now and then. When Allen, Pigg, Molina, etc were racing, it was about challenging one another to get to the next level in racing and training. Some of that has been lost, probably due to all of the science. I'm not advocating going backwards, but it wouldn't hurt to take a small step back. BUT, in the end, as is the case with me trying to get a group of guys together to run, it's mostly up to the athletes to do so. Some of it falls on the shoulders of the coaches as well to try to spur their athletes on to go run with faster guys or to even go out and recruit some of those 29 minute runners to drag their athletes around, but it's not happening.


So who were the coaches back then? Did Allen, Molina, Scott, etc. even have a triathlon coach? I know they all came from other backgrounds (mostly swimming), and I'm sure they had good coaches in the single sport area, but who put together the workouts and training programs that lead to their incredible race efforts back then? Were there any enclaves or communities for them? Dave Scott was up in Davis, away from the San Diego scene, and it didn't hurt him much. Did Allen, Pigg and Tinley use the same training programs or coaches? Why is it that these guys were able to put out a challange that the others followed but no one seems to now? I remember reading one of Dan's articles about a particular climb in the San Diego area that was very tough and Spencer Smith's father placing a bet on who could get to the top first. You don't hear about DeBoom, Reid and Cam Brown doing that? Just a thought.



- Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
P. J. O'Rourke
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Re: some thoughts on enclaves [brentl] [ In reply to ]
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think about naturally existing situations that actually are "enclaves" by definition. I'll use college CC and T/F programs for an example. Look at Stanford and Arkansas and tell me that enclaves don't work. How about the Iowa Hawkeye wrestling program when Gable was there. The concept is valid in many sport settings and is the only way a consistent crop of athletes can rise to the next level. Sure, in Div I T/F some kid from the Univ. of Northern Illinois may win the 5K one time but how many kids do Stanford and Arkansas have in the race every single year.

When I was in college we had a guy running 8:00 indoors for the 3K and another right about 8:05ish. Before you knew it, we had about 6 guys running under 8:30 for a "midmajor" program. It just happens when you are around faster people, and you often don't even realize it until you see your race times.

The main point is that different groups progress at different speeds due to many factors such a coaching styles and group dynamics and it is often unfair to compare two enclaves against each other at a given point of time. Just because X is faster than Y right now does not mean Y enclave does not produce an equal number of elite athletes over a given time frame.
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Re: some thoughts on enclaves [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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". . a little less science, a little more courage, that's what's sometimes missing i think."

Brilliant - absolutly hits the nail on the head. In my mind there is too much by-the-book training going on. People wonder why the East Africans run so fast. You can debate this from all maner of angles, but the basic and most simple answer is that they spend more time running faster! That's it.

When was the last time you saw a Kenyan at the side of the track checking his HRM to see if he was in the right zone!!!

This has been studied and they have found that the Kenyan's in particular spend 30% or more of their training time at or near race-tempo intensity. Many so called "expert coaches" will say that only 10% of your training should be spent at this level and that the Kenyan system is a recipe for disaster - but they have no evidence to back this up.

This is purely anecdotal, but I found that the biggest boosts in my fitness came after sustained periods of time spent training with people who were better than me - really pushing the distance and intensity in an effort just to keep up. Really going for it almost every day for several weeks in a row.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Jun 27, 03 11:54
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