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question about construction of disc/carbon fiber wheels
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I am a Mechanical Engineering student. For a final project in one of my classes this term I am modeling my road bike in a 3D CAD program (with some simplifications due to time constraints). If I model the wheels as disc wheels or carbon wheels like H3's I don't have to worry about as many of the details like hub flanges, bladed spokes and spoke lacing, spoke holes in the rims, etc... At least I think I don't.

Looking at Hed's and Zipp's websites hasn't provided a close look at the center of their wheels, and they don't have any full cross-section views that give me what I want to know about the construction. I am kicking myself for never taking a closer look at someone else's wheels at a race. Can anyone explain to me how the hubs are attached to the carbon discs? It's all carbon, right - not just carbon skins over spokes?

In the cutaway photo of the rim cross-section at the lower left of the URL below, what is the material between the parallel braking surfaces?

http://www.zipp.com/Wheelsets/909.html

Thanks a million!
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Re: question about construction of disc/carbon fiber wheels [uphiller] [ In reply to ]
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If you you take a look at a Corima or Zipp Disc (last year's non-dimpled version) the cross section of the wheel is essentially a long rectangle. These discs are both flat (the sides are totally parallel) and have a carbon braking surface that is flush with the rest of the wheel surface, so there's no groove or surface detail. For simplicity sake, I'd assume the surface of the disk is consistently smooth and I'd ignore the valve cutout entirely. You will have to deal with the interface between the tire and the wheel (the "groove" for lack of a better word) and how the hub is attached to the wheel body. This is a pretty good shot of the corima but there's probably not enough detail at the hub for what you need.


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Re: question about construction of disc/carbon fiber wheels [uphiller] [ In reply to ]
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But you do have to worry about things like hub flanges, etc. on a composite wheel.

I have not built a composite wheel; however, I do know a thing or two about their construction. The Hed does not have a core, therefore it is an "all-carbon" wheel (not really, as I will explain later*). Flat wheels like the Renn, Corima, and the Zipp have a core (whether it be honeycomb or structural foam) bonded to a rim (or not, in the case of the Corima).

All of the hubs have flanges- it is the basis for the hub to be attached to the wheel. The difference (with the exception of an old Japanese wheel that the disc covering replaced spokes- very complicated to explain) is how it is bonded. Some are bonded or glued in, some are screwed together and glued in. Glue is the main common denominator.

There are some wheels that only screw in the hub with no bonding- this makes changing the purpose of the wheel quite easily. The old Specialized wheels (and I am sure that the current Hed3) allows changing of the "guts" for switching between front and track wheels. Aerospoke allows the changing of the hub, and you could buy Nimble wheels as pieces (I don't know if they sell the "pieces" any more).

I don't believe I am giving away any industrial trade secrets here (as almost everyone I have asked in the composites industry have told me these things), but my best suggestion would be to get some foam, get a suitable hub (either by crudely hacking one up or buying an Aerospoke hub, if still available), getting a rim, getting some carbon fabric, carbon tape, fibreglass, good epoxy, aircraft glue, and getting started. You don't even need vacuum-bagging equipment (though it may make life easier and allow smoother results).

There are many references for getting started (including an article on home carbon fibre fabrication on Damon Rinard's site http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/), so you're not going to be a pioneer of sorts. Many companies who manufacture and/or sell composites supplies will be happy to give or sell you reference materials and how-to manuals.

I wish you luck in your upcoming projects.

* for all intents and purposes, the Hed disc is "all-carbon" disc bonded to an aluminum rim and hub. The walls support the weight of the load, therefore need to be heavier, unlike a wheel with a core that is reinforced with carbon fibre skin.
Last edited by: bunnyman: Jul 1, 03 17:25
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Re: question about construction of disc/carbon fiber wheels [bunnyman] [ In reply to ]
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Heh - sorry to have mislead you; I am not actually BUILDING a wheel - only "modeling" it on the PC in a 3D Computer Aided Design (CAD) program - SolidEdge, for those who may be familiar with CAD software. This is the type of program that produces all the really cool-looking multi-color, cartoony cutaway views of assemblies you sometimes see in magazine ads, on TV, etc. When I get done I may try to post a screenshot or something if I am proud enough of my work.

I hope to plug data from my software bike frame model into an FEA (Finite Element Analysis) program and simulate the type of forces acting on it that it sees in use. Then (after letting the computer do some really really heavy math for an hour or so) I can get a theoretical prediction of the frame's stiffness, torsional rigidity, and so on. I might even go to the trouble of rigging up a way to test my real-life frame and compare the results. Powerful software. Pretty much everything is designed in CAD programs these days.

Anyway, thanks to both of you for the info - just what I needed to know. I think I'll go with the Corima style in the rear to take advantage of the perfectly parallel discs and no need to put in a special braking surface. For the front I'll invent something similar and just cut out a bunch of the material to make 4 pairs of nice wide carbon spokes like those on some Spinergy MTB (and maybe road, too - I don't know) wheels from a few years back. I'll even omit the core material.

I think I have already figured out how to handle the tire groove. This thing really doesn't have to be that complex. My prof doesn't know anything about bikes. ;) Besides, he knows there is no way we have time to do anything too complex, so some degree of simplification is allowed.

Thanks again!
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