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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Although the rulings don't matter to triathletes they will be shaping the product market for us.

No doubt, but why is this a concern to you?

I never said it was a concern to me (run of the mill AG'er). I simply say that the UCI rulings do apply to us (in a non direct manner) in that they shape our product market for bikes and bike parts. I guess the level of concern one has as just a triathlete is based on how badly you want to ride a uber bike.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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So what are latest info/rumours on the original topic?? Apologies in advance to Fleck for boring him ...
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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So what are latest info/rumours on the original topic?? Apologies in advance to Fleck for boring him ...
It's still not definite. The latest I heard - from an official source - is that there is still no answer. January 1, 2010 may - or may not - see the bikes being banned.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So what are latest info/rumours on the original topic?? Apologies in advance to Fleck for boring him ...
It's still not definite. The latest I heard - from an official source - is that there is still no answer. January 1, 2010 may - or may not - see the bikes being banned.
thanks for the feedback!
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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Any news on the legality of these frames and concepts?
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [PowerWatts] [ In reply to ]
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Further to that question, anyone know the final word from USACycling if they're going to enforce UCI regs at Masters Natz?
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [PowerWatts] [ In reply to ]
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i wish the UCI would hurry up as i have cash burning a hole in my pocket....
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [PowerWatts] [ In reply to ]
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Here is a (non-clarifying) email that i received from Jean Wathier at the UCI:

Dear Sir,
The technical rules did not change since 2000. There are no new rules. There are simply components of bicycles used in competitions which are not in conformity with our technical regulation. During year 2008, we received many messages and remarks (from riders, team managers, federations, journalists, private individuals and manufacturers) about TT bicycles. These complaints were admissible and relevant. The problems were not on the frames themselves but about the accessories (handelbar with a vertical nose, water bottles, seat tube - article 1.3.024).

The UCI does not have any capacity of interference in the manufacture of bicycles. The market is free. The manufacturer build what he wants and the consumer buys what he wants. However, if the manufacturer wants to use his products in the competitions, there are technical rules to respect. There is no competition without rules. There is a technical regulation which must be known of all and if there are a doubt or a question we are available to bring our assistance. With the majority of the manufacturers there is no major problem, but there are some manufacturers who do not play the game correctly.

Each year, our commissaires discover new technical things ever seen before (often border line with technical regulation). These things are introduced surreptitiously (in spite of our article 1.3.004). These things (who maintain confusion expressly) were thought during months and the commissaire must decide in two minutes surrounded people with very loud voices. It arrives, of course, that commissaires react differently and perhaps not in a good sense. In the absence of vigilance and of firmness, it is then the reign of the accomplished act. And if, thereafter, we want to correct, everyone is astonished (or plays astonished).

However, the manufacturers in question understood (easily) the situation and asked for a deadline of one year to put itself in conformity. They also asked to receive a guide of application of the technical rules which is only a recall of the rules with details and practical explanations. Of course, from marketing and commercial point of view, it is easier to say than the UCI changed the rules during 2009 but at the time of a meeting with a manufacturer in question this one affirmed us that he had never read the UCI technical regulation and that he was going now to respect it ! You cannot make the UCI responsible of that.

Best regards,

jean wauthier
UCI Technical Adviser
-----
This should be interesting...
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [PowerWatts] [ In reply to ]
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so the arm rests and base bar in 2 planes and mantis avoidance was not a change to the rules.... or just a 'clarification'...??????????
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [studodd] [ In reply to ]
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so the arm rests and base bar in 2 planes and mantis avoidance was not a change to the rules.... or just a 'clarification'...??????????


Yes. Body weight must be supported by the hands. The clarification goes on to say how that will be ensured.



-SD

Dave Koesel - Category Leader Roval, Power, On-bike Components
https://rovalcomponents.com/
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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so the arm rests and base bar in 2 planes and mantis avoidance was not a change to the rules.... or just a 'clarification'...??????????


Yes. Body weight must be supported by the hands. The clarification goes on to say how that will be ensured.

If there is anyone who thinks that body weight isn't supported by elbow rests (even when set up to the UCI "clarification") let me know...I've got a bridge to sell them ;-)

The ONLY way to ensure that body weight is supported by the hands is to eliminate aerobar extensions...period.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Shhhh, dont give them any more ideas. ;-)

Kevin
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY way to ensure that body weight is supported by the hands is to eliminate aerobar extensions...period.


You sure about that? ;-)

(Long before aerobars were invented there was a veteran's rider from upstate NY who used to TT with one forearm draped across the tops of his drop bars...I want to say that his name was Peter Read/Reid/Reed, but I'm not sure.)
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY way to ensure that body weight is supported by the hands is to eliminate aerobar extensions...period.


You sure about that? ;-)

(Long before aerobars were invented there was a veteran's rider from upstate NY who used to TT with one forearm draped across the tops of his drop bars...I want to say that his name was Peter Read/Reid/Reed, but I'm not sure.)


OK...AND require you to keep your hands on the bars...sheesh.

BTW, I'm somewhat amused by the lack of admitting ANY responsibility on the UCI's part in the past rules "confusion" by Mr. Wauthier above...it's all of those sneaky manufacturers fault!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jan 4, 10 8:10
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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My understanding is that they are enforcing position UCI rules not 3 to 1 rules at masters nationals.
One of the clarifications that I heard is that they will permit ME for saddle or bars (depending on size of rider)- but only single exemptions. Can't be less than 5cm back and still get the bar exemption.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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A novel solution that UCI could use to achieve their goal would be to specify a minimum Cda for a frame and/or components. If the Shiv is too fast, they can decrease the Cda by adding drag fixtures to the bike for the race. Then, for a triathlon, they can be removed. Manufacturers can still offer faster bikes to the triathlon crowd that can also be used for UCI events. This is like restrictor plate racing in motorsports.

That way no one would need to retool or scrap investment $$ and us triathletes can still get as fast as OUR rules allow.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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That was my understanding too.

@psycholist - I pulled this off our NCNCA forum. It was posted by someone from the USCF board of Trustees

There were two proposed rule changes concerning UCI bike regulations - both involving masters. One was to drop all application of UCI bike rules for Masters Nats; the other was to make a specific exception and not apply the 3:1 rule. Neither passed, so the rulebook is unchanged.

Note that there were *two* major changes from the UCI in the interpretation of bike regs: the 3:1 application to components and the change in "morphological exceptions ("morphs"). There are two aspects of the bike regs that can be modified based on body type - the saddle can be less than 5cm behind the BB, and the bars can be up to 80cm forward of the BB, rather than 75cm, based on applying a morph. The change in interpretation is that a rider may only get *one* morph. This is consistent with the saddle exception being for short people, and the handlebar for tall people.

I expect that the USAC Technical Director will issue one or more updates through the year, clarifying how we will apply the UCI rules in domestic events. My own *personal* guess - not speaking for USAC or the USCF Trustees - is that generally available equipment that was okay this year will probably be okay in 2010 for Masters Nats.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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That was my understanding too.

@psycholist - I pulled this off our NCNCA forum. It was posted by someone from the USCF board of Trustees

There were two proposed rule changes concerning UCI bike regulations - both involving masters. One was to drop all application of UCI bike rules for Masters Nats; the other was to make a specific exception and not apply the 3:1 rule. Neither passed, so the rulebook is unchanged.

Note that there were *two* major changes from the UCI in the interpretation of bike regs: the 3:1 application to components and the change in "morphological exceptions ("morphs"). There are two aspects of the bike regs that can be modified based on body type - the saddle can be less than 5cm behind the BB, and the bars can be up to 80cm forward of the BB, rather than 75cm, based on applying a morph. The change in interpretation is that a rider may only get *one* morph. This is consistent with the saddle exception being for short people, and the handlebar for tall people.

I expect that the USAC Technical Director will issue one or more updates through the year, clarifying how we will apply the UCI rules in domestic events. My own *personal* guess - not speaking for USAC or the USCF Trustees - is that generally available equipment that was okay this year will probably be okay in 2010 for Masters Nats.

Why do they hate people with short legs and long torsos?? ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY way to ensure that body weight is supported by the hands is to eliminate aerobar extensions...period.


You sure about that? ;-)

(Long before aerobars were invented there was a veteran's rider from upstate NY who used to TT with one forearm draped across the tops of his drop bars...I want to say that his name was Peter Read/Reid/Reed, but I'm not sure.)


OK...AND require you to keep your hands on the bars...sheesh.

BTW, I'm somewhat amused by the lack of admitting ANY responsibility on the UCI's part in the past rules "confusion" by Mr. Wauthier above...it's all of those sneaky manufacturers fault!


Geez the rules are completely, utterly clear - at least to those who wrote 'em :-)

In any case, I do wonder about the state of UCI play re these TT bikes for 2010. Anyone in the know?
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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It is probably worse for riders who are tall but don't need to sit back very far.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Good thing for you on the 3 to 1. My understanding is that the UCI retro-fit on the Shiv "dumbs" it down significantly. No more nose cone or hidden brake.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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That would make me sad. Heard a retro-fit was in the works but don't know any details.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I shouldn't shoot you since you're only the messenger. Thanks for the message.
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [rmur] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY way to ensure that body weight is supported by the hands is to eliminate aerobar extensions...period.


You sure about that? ;-)

(Long before aerobars were invented there was a veteran's rider from upstate NY who used to TT with one forearm draped across the tops of his drop bars...I want to say that his name was Peter Read/Reid/Reed, but I'm not sure.)


OK...AND require you to keep your hands on the bars...sheesh.

BTW, I'm somewhat amused by the lack of admitting ANY responsibility on the UCI's part in the past rules "confusion" by Mr. Wauthier above...it's all of those sneaky manufacturers fault!


Geez the rules are completely, utterly clear - at least to those who wrote 'em :-)

In any case, I do wonder about the state of UCI play re these TT bikes for 2010. Anyone in the know?

I had an interesting discussion with one of the members of GOCEM (Global Organization of Cycling Equipment Manufacturers) before my group ride yesterday morning...let's just say that there's still quite a bit of "clarification" needed before all parties (manufacturers, UCI, teams) are on the "same page".

In fact, I was told that a case could be made for basically EVERY TT frame currently being manufactured to be "non-compliant" in one area or another, including ones that have been used in UCI events for YEARS =:-0

Apparently the main problem is that there currently is NO formalized procedure in place for obtaining "design approval" from the UCI.

The other interesting thing I was told was that there actually seems to be quite a bit of "push back" from the commissaires themselves to change things so that they aren't under the gun to rule something as being compliant or not literally minutes before an event. Good for them.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: new Giant, Shiv and P4 UCI illegal? [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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It is probably worse for riders who are tall but don't need to sit back very far.

That's basically what "short legs and long torso" implies, no?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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