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metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR
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hi folks,

mainly road cyclist here. a bit of background: i'm a Cat 1 and have done a few PRT races this year - to train for such taxing events I've done a TON of volume training this year, I'm at over 850 hours since Jan 1st. i'm about 5'9" and 145ish pounds, probably about 12% BF. like many folks on here probably, i track calories and what i eat on MFP. i try not to be obsessive, but i like to keep my weight in a roughly 5lb range so that i never have to make a huge effort to get to race weight if i want to.

one thing i've noticed with all the volume training the last few years is that my resting HR is quite low, as i'm sure is the same with many on here - about 40, with a max of 180. additionally, based on some rough calculations, i've gotten quite efficient at burning fat during long rides. as a one-off experiment to find my bonk limit and estimate my fat utilization, i did a 5000kj ride at about 60% FTP consuming no nutrition during and was fine by the end (no bonk). additionally, it takes a LOT for me to start sweating - my body often runs "cool".

the reason i bring this up is that i am sure that many folks on here are similarly efficient at burning fat and having low HR's - does that mean that i have an extremely low resting metabolic rate as well? for example, when i am tracking calories i set Myfitnesspal to the absolute MINIMUM that I can just to maintain weight and not gain it. that is, even though i do about 3 miles of walking at my job per day and commute via bike both ways i set it to "sedentary" (1500cal RMR according to the app) and then i ONLY add to that what my powermeter tells me.

basically, on a normal day i'll commute 12 miles round trip, walk 3 miles at work, and then do a 1500kj bike session while eating about 3000 calories, yet my weight stays the same (yes, i do measure my food and even add about 250 "ghost calories" to the day's tally). i work with a powerlifter who is about 180 lbs, does NO cardio, claims to always be warm, and eats a measured 5000cal per day just to maintain weight and not lose it.

so my question is: has all the endurance training made us so hyper-efficient that our bodies basically burn no calories unless we're actively working out? has anyone gotten a gas-exchange test to actually see what their RMR is? i'm just baffled as to how it seems that i need so little intake compared to my activity level lest i gain weight instantly, despite measuring and trying to actually overcompensate in that regard.
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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I'm no expert, but It's my understanding that BMR is simply the energy that the various types of cells in your body require to stay alive, i.e., a pound of muscle tissue needs x calories to live. BMR is infuenced by body composition, as different types of tissue (fat vs. muscle) have different BMR, but is not influenced at all by fitness. My best guess in your case is that you're either underestimating what you're eating, overestimating how many calories your burning during exercise and throughout the day, or some combination of the two.
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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I would bet it is a little of both, more efficient in your BMR, and in your workouts. I'm kind of like you in that I burn fat really well, especially if it is cold outside. Since none of us lays in bed all day, even on off days, it just makes sense if you are more fit for workouts, you will be more fit for daily routines. So probably a few less calories on the BMR chart, and definitely lower calories out when working out too. You are an endurance animal!

Your resting is really not that low, only compared to the sedentary population. Most athletes I have known, all have heart rates at low 40's to 30's. Mine was 28 at one point, but now that I'm in my 60's and nearly as fit, it hovers around 32 at rest..I think that is what is considered low for our peer group..
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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My wife is Type 1 diabetic and has to reduce her insulin if she starts training seriously for something. I'm talking about the insulin she takes even if she's sitting around doing nothing all day. This is because training fires up her metabolism to burn more even when she's sitting still. Could be a lot of reasons why, such as she's increased her muscle mass some.

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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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I think about this every so often myself. I try to do anywhere between 1k-1500kj 6 days a week and I *think* I don't go overboard with the eating and have been stuck in the low 160's (I had been at 154 for awhile), so I must not really be doing enough to create a deficit, but I don't track or anything, plus I work from home so I'm always snacking. Like you, I don't really consume a ton on the bike for outdoor endurance stuff (I've done a couple of 100 mile rides this past summer where I took in 800-900 calories on 3500kj rides, I'm not as accomplished on the massive weekend rides as you are!), and I generally don't do anything for 2hr trainer workouts.

I know cycle loft occasionally has metabolic testing (they don't seem to have any scheduled in the immediate future), i've been curious to get mine tested, especially since I'm going to turn 40 in Jan and do wonder about changes over time. Not sure where else in the area one could go to for this type of testing, but I am curious about this, and need to focus to get back down to the low 150's so I can really get beyond 4w/kg lol.
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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I have noticed something similar to what you are saying. I think the rules of thumb for BMR, calories in/calories out only go so far. I try to track my activity and calories pretty closely and also pay pretty close attention to how my body is responding. I seem to have an anchor weight/body fat percentage where going any further causes an increase in symptoms such as hangriness, lethargy, mental fog, always being cold, and weight loss slows to a crawl despite caloric deficits if you use the rule of thumb for BMR. It almost seems as if my body is shutting down as much as possible awaiting the next workout. Obviously, I'm no expert but I have always surmised that those symptoms accompany a lower BMR. In the end, we probably don't give our bodies enough credit for being complex machines with the ability to adapt.
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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johnj121591 wrote:
hi folks,

mainly road cyclist here. a bit of background: i'm a Cat 1 and have done a few PRT races this year - to train for such taxing events I've done a TON of volume training this year, I'm at over 850 hours since Jan 1st. i'm about 5'9" and 145ish pounds, probably about 12% BF. like many folks on here probably, i track calories and what i eat on MFP. i try not to be obsessive, but i like to keep my weight in a roughly 5lb range so that i never have to make a huge effort to get to race weight if i want to.

one thing i've noticed with all the volume training the last few years is that my resting HR is quite low, as i'm sure is the same with many on here - about 40, with a max of 180. additionally, based on some rough calculations, i've gotten quite efficient at burning fat during long rides. as a one-off experiment to find my bonk limit and estimate my fat utilization, i did a 5000kj ride at about 60% FTP consuming no nutrition during and was fine by the end (no bonk). additionally, it takes a LOT for me to start sweating - my body often runs "cool".

the reason i bring this up is that i am sure that many folks on here are similarly efficient at burning fat and having low HR's - does that mean that i have an extremely low resting metabolic rate as well? for example, when i am tracking calories i set Myfitnesspal to the absolute MINIMUM that I can just to maintain weight and not gain it. that is, even though i do about 3 miles of walking at my job per day and commute via bike both ways i set it to "sedentary" (1500cal RMR according to the app) and then i ONLY add to that what my powermeter tells me.

basically, on a normal day i'll commute 12 miles round trip, walk 3 miles at work, and then do a 1500kj bike session while eating about 3000 calories, yet my weight stays the same (yes, i do measure my food and even add about 250 "ghost calories" to the day's tally). i work with a powerlifter who is about 180 lbs, does NO cardio, claims to always be warm, and eats a measured 5000cal per day just to maintain weight and not lose it.

so my question is: has all the endurance training made us so hyper-efficient that our bodies basically burn no calories unless we're actively working out? has anyone gotten a gas-exchange test to actually see what their RMR is? i'm just baffled as to how it seems that i need so little intake compared to my activity level lest i gain weight instantly, despite measuring and trying to actually overcompensate in that regard.

My understanding is your resting HR is low because you have a big stroke volume, if more blood is pumped per beat, it doesn't have to beat as fast to supply the same amount of oxygen to your body.
RMR is body mass, particularly muscle mass related. You're probably not that much if any more efficient than your powerlifter colleague. You just don't have very much muscle compared to him.
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Re: metabolic efficiency, conditioning, and RMR [johnj121591] [ In reply to ]
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johnj121591 wrote:
hi folks,
mainly road cyclist here. a bit of background: i'm a Cat 1 and have done a few PRT races this year - to train for such taxing events I've done a TON of volume training this year, I'm at over 850 hours since Jan 1st. i'm about 5'9" and 145ish pounds, probably about 12% BF. like many folks on here probably, i track calories and what i eat on MFP. i try not to be obsessive, but i like to keep my weight in a roughly 5lb range so that i never have to make a huge effort to get to race weight if i want to.
one thing i've noticed with all the volume training the last few years is that my resting HR is quite low, as i'm sure is the same with many on here - about 40, with a max of 180. additionally, based on some rough calculations, i've gotten quite efficient at burning fat during long rides. as a one-off experiment to find my bonk limit and estimate my fat utilization, i did a 5000kj ride at about 60% FTP consuming no nutrition during and was fine by the end (no bonk). additionally, it takes a LOT for me to start sweating - my body often runs "cool".
the reason i bring this up is that i am sure that many folks on here are similarly efficient at burning fat and having low HR's - does that mean that i have an extremely low resting metabolic rate as well? for example, when i am tracking calories i set Myfitnesspal to the absolute MINIMUM that I can just to maintain weight and not gain it. that is, even though i do about 3 miles of walking at my job per day and commute via bike both ways i set it to "sedentary" (1500cal RMR according to the app) and then i ONLY add to that what my powermeter tells me.
basically, on a normal day i'll commute 12 miles round trip, walk 3 miles at work, and then do a 1500kj bike session while eating about 3000 calories, yet my weight stays the same (yes, i do measure my food and even add about 250 "ghost calories" to the day's tally). i work with a powerlifter who is about 180 lbs, does NO cardio, claims to always be warm, and eats a measured 5000cal per day just to maintain weight and not lose it.
so my question is: has all the endurance training made us so hyper-efficient that our bodies basically burn no calories unless we're actively working out? has anyone gotten a gas-exchange test to actually see what their RMR is? i'm just baffled as to how it seems that i need so little intake compared to my activity level lest i gain weight instantly, despite measuring and trying to actually overcompensate in that regard.

i think your power-lifter friend is bull-sheeting you. No way he eats 5000 to maintain 180 lbs. I weigh around 183 at 6'2" and about 10% fat, but I am a life-long swimmer and have the swimmer's build. I had my RMR tested via the "breath in and out of a tube in your mouth with a clamp on your nose while sitting quietly for 10 min" method at my fitness center. I came out at about 14.2 cal/lb or about 2600 cal/day at 183. If I do not do any exercise, then that is about my basic caloric intake. Typically I swim and run about 2.5 hr/day and so take in around 5000 cal/day BUT that is with the 2.5 hr/day, not without!!! I've never been a "power lifter" but my impression from doing weights and dry land training for swimming is that weight training maybe burns 400-500 cal/hr at the most, e,g. consid less than aerobic workouts b/c weight lifters generally rest 2-3 min between 20-30 sec sets.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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