What I have seen by Keto loving drs is we make plenty of our own ketones so no need to supplement

You only make your own if you're on a ketogenic diet. As soon as you start eat carbs, that stops. The idea behind these supplements is to allow you to use ketones as fuel without giving up carbs.

Nope - we all make them, just in smaller amounts than in a ketogenic state.

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http://www.extramilenutrition.com

If it's good enough for the TdF - http://www.cyclingnews.com/...used-at-jumbo-visma/

It's clearly good enough for tri.

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Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)

More info from https://www.healthline.com/...supplements#section6

Exogenous ketones are ketones supplied through an external source, while endogenous ketones are the type produced naturally by your body through a process called ketogenesis.
Exogenous ketone supplements are commonly used by those following a ketogenic diet to increase blood ketone levels.
Aside from potentially helping you reach ketosis quicker, exogenous ketone supplements have been linked to other benefits as well.
For example, they have been shown to boost athletic performance, speed muscle recovery and decrease appetite (18Trusted Source, 19Trusted Source).
However, research on exogenous ketones is limited, and many experts argue that these supplements aren’t necessary for keto dieters.
Additionally, most of the studies on exogenous ketones used a more powerful type of exogenous ketones called ketone esters, not ketone salts, which is the most common form found in supplements available to consumers.
While some people may find these supplements helpful, more research is needed to establish their potential benefits and risks.

Summary Exogenous ketones may help raise ketone levels, decrease appetite and increase athletic performance. However, more research is needed to establish the effectiveness of these supplements.

From this source there seems to be several physical upsides for athletic performance. I'm not smart enough to see the downsides of taking the supplement. Optimism might have me start taking it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exogenous_ketone

This product seems to be marketed to cyclists in particular. Many reviews from cyclists/triathletes. Expensive IMO. https://www.amazon.com/...rmance/dp/B07CTP3XST

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Thanks for posting. After some reading, my son's phrase "That's so dope" comes to mind.

Maybe it's not dope and just an expensive "food"? Seems like the good stuff costs about the same as a bike chain per use. And then do you take it on race day or everyday for maximum benefit / reduced risk and expense?

Decisions, decisions.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fk1XnJFf1U

Lance mentions it at 10 minute on the video - looks like it is widespread in the peloton.

The way it works looks different from the AICAR thing but looks correlated

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21982775


Very expensive currently - the pure esther thing - but the powder thing exist mostly marketed for females to lose weight - some say it is only 50% as efficient as the pure esther but it is most cheaper.

pure esther thing you gotta be careful with your insulin lever and glycemie level -

My liver could be better so I'm kind of cautious; yet, interested in products that are easily digestible and help protein synthesis. From what's I've read, this can help with protein. Also found it interesting that it impacts blood plasma.

So it sounds like buying the tub of ketone salts and taking it daily like a protein supplement would be the safer way to go. Your thoughts?

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC5670148/

This article says that ketone supplements offer many health benefits without the negatives of a keto diet. Ketone ester is more costly and effective (maybe too much for some people). Ketone salts were also used in the study. The article seemed favorable to the use of ketone supplements for athletes.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

LOL, they are probably, most certainly being used in triathlon.

"The other impediments to the long-term use of ketone supplements is their poor palatability for the esters and their cost. Currently at about $1 per gram of delivered ketones, daily dosages from 25 to 100 grams quickly add up to exceed most reasonably anticipated benefits short of winning the Tour de France."

https://blog.virtahealth.com/ketone-supplements/

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

But ketone supplements taste like crap. If that is what it takes to be a pro... i don’t have what it takes.

Pardon my ignorance on this but if this is meant to give you more of something your body already produces, what makes this different from taking supplemental EPO? Or is it just because the science doesn't yet fully support that it enhances performance?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

The latter, there is not sufficient evidence of either it's performance enhancing properties, or it's negative effects. From this article:

“The drug is not on the doping list, because the investigation into the side effects is still in its infancy,” he said. “As long as the negative effects cannot be demonstrated immediately, it will not be on the doping list either. I assume that many top athletes use ketones. The drug is available and more and more sports doctors and physiologists recommend it.”

I have trialled it for a while now. I got onto ketone salts and esters several years ago after listening to Joe Rogan podcasts. I found I generally felt better in training using salts some years ago but it was a fine line to causing GI distress using it so I stopped. There was talk of Ketone esters and how expensive they were and the team Sky dropping the magic bottle incident in the peloton years ago. Finally ketone esters became available to the general public a little more than a year ago with https://hvmn.com/ making it semi affordable.

I have tried it and raced on it and yes it tastes terrible and I have had a terrible race on it and my last two 70.3 I have placed second for my age group including my fastest run ever and another KQ in the last in China. Would I put down a greater performance due to ketone? I would say potentially very minor as I only had a bottle prior to the swim start, my form had been building and my result wasn't resounding in to comparison to my performances in the past but I see it purely as another fuel source. I did read a report from Bevan McKinnon who is becoming somewhat of a legend tri coach in the Australia/New Zealand area and on his day as a 40+ year old could demolish the rest of the AG field basically pro level and read a report that he was using ketone salts in his IM race nutrition. I quizzed him online and he openly told me he saw it as another pathway to getting energy in besides carbs.

What interests me most now is that the body seems to recover better using ketone so with the big push coming for Kona I plan to use a lot more ketone supplements in training in the hope to feel better and perform better through the bigger training blocks. I will race two 70.3 races in the lead up before making a final decision on if and how I use ketones during Kona.

I find it interesting people call this a drug. It is in essence another energy source like carbohydrates. Your body is supposedly able to use it more efficiently and you may get a few percent extra out of it but more so as an aerobic gain. As an Ironman endurance athlete I see it more as having an extended fuel tank.

i like the just another source of calories part though it would be interested to know how to best stimulate this naturel process

looks to be 3 different ways: ether, oil and powder

ether seems to work the best as far as the only to really work

because looks like there are some argument about oil and powder not being effective because the body does not recognize it hence not able to assimilate these 2 latter forms.

Would be interested to have the opinion of a pro from the inside of those teams - how they adjust diet with that and the periodization

Oil I can only assume you mean MCT oil? I use it and operate to a low carb high fat diet so I hope my ketone level will be higher to start with and MCT oil will help the body do that but my ketone levels won't be great. I found I feel better and perform better with carbs albeit limited and try to structure when I take them. When it comes to racing it is carbs all the way and the only real way to get your ketone level up is with salts or ester. Ester is the best of all worlds as the salts your salt intake become to high for prolonged use. I found I got gut distress if I abused salt too much.

ok I have ordered MCT oil will give it a go -
as for HVMN bottles still thinking before click that "order" button... my way is that I want to try this at least 2 times before a race so 99$...

about my experience:
I am also currently following a similar spirit as low carb diet ( since 6 months) I entirely cut pasta and bread and only take carbs from lentilus and fruits - though I eat a full plate of fruits every morning so not sure i am in that much low carb.. one banana - a quarter of ananas one kiwi quarter mangus, honey, and berries
this when i am training in Z1 to Z3:
from my own experience it can makes the work outs sometimes difficult - like doing more than 80 km in Z2 is very challenging I can only do that once per week now.


As soon as I eat pasta and rice the work out becomes easier.

not sure yet if I am just fatiguing the body doing so or really making changes.

obviously when intensity work out or race I load the day before with pasta/rice


performance wise I have noticed slightly better result but hard to make any conclusions as:
- VO2max is down 20-30W - this is where I have found the most significant loss. size of my legs also smaller.
- FTP is down 10 W
- weight is down 5 kg

I would consult a nutritionist that is LCHF as to me you are going about it wrong. I often just have a bullet proof coffee (black coffee with butter and MCT oil) for breakfast and do easier bike sessions of up to three hours, swim or run without eating. The whole idea is training your body to run off fat and produce ketones. Fruit is full of carbs and sends you body to using carbohydrate and you may not produce as much ketones from using MCT as you potentially could and not train your body to fat adapt as much as you could. Maybe the fruit post training session or hard days? There was a good video of Sebi in his last pre season and he was talking about going long fasted and it was horrible or feasting on sugar for other sessions. Do some research or consult a nutritionist.

Also I increased my carb intake to what the nutritionist suggested because I felt better and performed better but I time my carbs for during training on the longer bikes/runs or post training generally. I too try to avoid bread and pasta. Your performance shouldn't be compromised by your diet even in training IMO unless you are just trying to lose weight?

Found the Sebi video go to 3min...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H1JZQiY7Ik

nice ty for the video if good enough for sebi i am doing this then


- a bit hard to do the 2 hours bike fasted on the morning because of work and cannot survive until noon without food !

but I guess I can do the run session on the morning on fasted state then break fast and go on with the bike at noon and call it a day


from the video it looks like he is getting break fast after the swim session - so looks like he is alterning fasted session between swim and bike.

My guess is the bike will be his only fasted session and would be at low intensity not to cross the threshold where your body starts using more carbs. I've been tested and calculated at 138bpm my body starts burning a 50/50 fat/carb ratio and use more carbs % the higher it goes. He is no doubt trying to increase his bodies efficiency at burning fat and trying to raise that level.