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holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs
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ok... so today is day 1 in my stop screwing around already lets begin the monster slow build for IMAZ06. I have been getting good results from my big gear fixie but I have always been a believer in the PCs, for no other reason than they place a tremendous yet bearable stress on the body which will cause adaptations beyond ordinary training, especially for those MOPers like me who only have a couple of years S/B/R endurance base. My hip flexors are trembling in anticipation...

Can I afford 800 bucks? To be honest, I really don't think so. It will take quite a lot for me to keep them beyond the 90 day grace period, but it is a possibility so I don't feel too bad taking Frank up on his generous offer. I will use them diligently and keep you all posted so that, if i do return them, i at least feel as if i got more anecdotal evidence out there re: PCs.

Thanks and have a nice day.
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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John,

Please keep us updated. I want before and after information. Update it on the thread if possible. I'd love to keep track and see if I could benefit from PCs.



Jason

*****
It's a dry heat!
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Can I afford 800 bucks? To be honest, I really don't think so. It will take quite a lot for me to keep them beyond the 90 day grace period, but it is a possibility so I don't feel too bad taking Frank up on his generous offer. I will use them diligently and keep you all posted so that, if i do return them, i at least feel as if i got more anecdotal evidence out there re: PCs.

Thanks and have a nice day.[/reply]

That is the exact reason I offer such a guarantee. $800 is a lot for most people to buy a product whose claims seem outlandish. That way you get to decide if they are worth the cost to you instead of listening to the opinions of others, many of whom have never tried the product.

I think your cranks will ship tuesday because of the holiday. Have "fun".

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, we will all have to share notes. I have actually gotten to 5 minutes at a time now. I am taking Susan's advice, keep the cadence real slow at the beginning.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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ILT training is more effective, and costs nothing. Buy a quality fluid trainer instead.

"What if I told you there was a simple method of training that would improve almost all aspects of fitness. A method that would help strength, spin, leg speed, anaerobic power, focus and breathing. A method so powerful that in training hundreds of athletes, I've never met one who did not benefit and see improvement within a few training sessions? "

http://arniebakercycling.com/...ted_leg_training.htm
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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I'll probably get flamed for that statement.
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]ILT training is more effective, and costs nothing. Buy a quality fluid trainer instead.

"[font "Arial"]What if I told you there was a simple method of training that would improve almost all aspects of fitness. A method that would help strength, spin, leg speed, anaerobic power, focus and breathing. A method so powerful that in training hundreds of athletes, I've never met one who did not benefit and see improvement within a few training sessions?[/font] "

[url "http://arniebakercycling.com/handouts/ht_isolated_leg_training.htm"]http://arniebakercycling.com/handouts/ht_isolated_leg_training.htm[/url][/reply]

Where is your evidence ILT is "more effective" than PC's and second, why do you say it costs nothing. After all, ILT costs time, a lot of time, and time is money isn't it?

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Why do folks seems to say their way for training is the only way? Some ways cost cash. Some cost time. So take certain hills, or temperatures or or or.

What works for someone, even if it is snake oil, why do folks seem to want to say it is impossible when data can never be found to prove things one way or another. I love to continue to try new ways of training, with different types of equipment. You never know for sure what may work for oneselfs unless you try it. Some things have worked for me, so have not.

I may end up this next year with lots of changes I will try. PCs on my Velotron. Rotor cranks on a new Titanflex. More run and bike training. Will any of it make me faster? Who knows, or really cares, it is fun to try new stuff. Training would be too boring if it never changed.



Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dave -

Actually, what I said was "don't push cadence," meaning just let your cadence be whatever it wants to be. I didn't record cadence in my training diary during those first few PC "adaptation workouts," but I think I remember it being around 70--not that that means anything. It just was what it was.

Susan
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [susanherself] [ In reply to ]
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Susan, that is around where I think mine is. (Someone is wrong in my velotron measuring real time RPM.)



Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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"ILT training is more effective, and costs nothing. Buy a quality fluid trainer instead."

Not sure how it can be MORE effective. Also, 90 days on PCs potentially costs nothing more than 2 way postage.

Effectiveness to one side, the problem with ILT is severalfold. First, I now live where it is easy and nice to get outside and ride everyday (east tucson, foot of mt. lemmon). Second, even when I had a trainer ILT was simply too easy to avoid (like those plyometrics I keep meaning to get to at the end of each run) and whenever I did do it it would be *maybe* 2 or 3x 60secs each leg. Just not enough.

Now after 90 days on PCs the question then will become, "given that I have the option of ILT/trainer, are the PCs worth it?" As Frank has repeatedly said, only *after* trying the PCs for 90 days will I be in a position to make that call. [Have you tried PCs, Gary?]

BTW - Tabouli rocks. Just made my first batch!
Last edited by: johnthesavage: Oct 9, 05 17:18
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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Great purchase, I believe that they have really helped me this year, perhaps moreso in running than cycling (some may believe that, some may not. The only thing that matters is that I believe it).

I recommend doing what I did for the first 90 days: ride the PCs exclusively. NO regular cranks! Working out or commuting or just tooling around, ride the PCs. Then, after 90 days, put the regular cranks back on and do a little TT. Then make the return/no-return decision.

Check out a thread I started on the same subject back in april after I had finished 90 days:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=367744;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Have fun!

-C

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Colin, I just read your earlier thread. Impressive!

I notice you have braced yourself for the coming attacks this time. ("The only thing that matters is that I believe it.") :)

Susan
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Not saying PCs are not effective - just that ILTs are more effective.
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Gary, what is ILT training ?

I find that JFT (Just F*****g Train) is the best method. Put one foot in front of the other, 1-6 hours per day, 52 weeks a year for a decade or more. Everything else is fine tuning for that final 2% of performance gain, and trust me, PC's fall into that "final 2%" camp.

I am a PC user and swear by them. John, you will benefit. I have never heard of anyone returning their PC's to Frank after the initial trial. Everyone keeps them.

Dev
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Not saying PCs are not effective - just that ILTs are more effective.[/reply]

Again Gary, why? Especially in view of the fact that PC's are ILT, all the time, both legs at the same time. How could one legged ILT be more effective than that?

I do not disagree that ILT training can be effective. I just disagree that it is more effective than PC's. In fact, it is not even in the same ball park unless you have data to the contrary.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Not saying PCs are not effective - just that ILTs are more effective.


How can they be more effective? 60mins on PC's and I've worked BOTH legs individually for 60mins total. As well as working the muscle memory of BOTH legs turning in time.

60mins of ILT on normal cranks and at best I have worked 30mins on each leg, very uncoordinated, and very dangerous on the road. I can do 4hrs on the road on my PC's, could you do ILT on the road for 4hrs?
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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Gary,

I don't know that I have every seen the answer to this one way or another, but have you ever used PCs for any length of time? I am always amused at the people who say something is more effective than riding PCs when they have never ridden PCs. That's like a sportwriter saying the Tour de France is just riding a bicycle. Anyone can do that. It's just silly.

I certainly don't write back on Rotorcrank threads that PCs work better because how would I know? I've never used Rotorcranks. I have tried isolated leg training and it is mindless work. I can't stand it. I have ridden six hours on Powercranks though and it was great fun. Riding that is, not using Powercranks. PCs, I never think about anymore.

I would venture that the success of people using and riding PCs is directly tied to the fact that you can do it on a regular bicycle, out on the road. Other tools/gimmicks that can't be transferred to the road just won't fly with most people. Sure you could take one of your crankarms off and ride down the road one-legged. You could probably even rig up a sling to hold up the opposite leg. However, the time it would require to be effective is huge because you can only do it one leg at a time. You also could put both your cranks on the same side and work them that way, but then you have no feedback if one leg is doing more work than the other.

Chad
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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ya buy some rotor cranks and drop your 40k time from a 57 to a 53 right gary?
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I have used PCs briefly, ... ILTs are more effective - I cannot achieve the same results with PCs as I can with proper ILT training ... I just cannot pedal as hard or work the leg as effective as with ILTs and a trainer and a good coach

No, Rotor Cranks will not knock 4 minutes off a 40k TT - but you can achieve metabolic improvements and lowered lactic acid production, lower heart rate and lactic acid production riding at the same speed, preliminary increases in wattage, and the preservation of knee health.

Not trying to compare the products, I did not mention Rotor Cranks originally. I mentioned ILT training.

PCs have their place, they do help develop spin and develop muscles for running. They are another tool for athletes to utilize, as are ILTs. You cannot do ILTs properly while using PCs.

- Gary
Last edited by: Gary Tingley: Oct 10, 05 6:29
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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<< I have never heard of anyone returning their PC's to Frank after the initial trial. Everyone keeps them. >>

Sojourner aka Joe/Joey/Joseph returned his. So that's at least one pair (or 3? 4? ;-)

I'm pretty sure at least one other person has posted here about returning theirs.



And - they do appear on eBay fairly regularly, so obviously those folks decided to move on and stop PC'ing. (just after 90 days apparently).

I'm sure Frank can tell us the % that gets returned, and I think he may have at least once before. I do vaguely remember it being a very small %age.

This is neither a pro or anti PC post.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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You always have the option of ILT on PCs without having to unclip. How long did you use PCs? Was the usage exclusive? Its not fair to make a blanket statement that ILT is better than PCs without having anything to really back it up, since it is counter-intuitive that ILT would be better than PCs.
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Gary Tingley] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Yes, I have used PCs briefly, ... ILTs are more effective - I cannot achieve the same results with PCs as I can with proper ILT training ... I just cannot pedal as hard or work the leg as effective as with ILTs and a trainer and a good coach

PCs have their place, they do help develop spin and develop muscles for running. They are another tool for athletes to utilize, as are ILTs. You cannot do ILTs properly while using PCs.

- Gary[/reply]

Gary, you are not getting off that easy.

1. Yes, Gary has actually ridden PCs, although I might add, VERY briefly. We don't need to go into that story though.

2. How was it you were able to measure that you could not (or "cannot") "achieve the same results with PC's as I can with proper ILT training" in the amount of time you had to compare. Actually, now that I think about it, that is a statement we are both in agreement with, except I believe ILT is inferior, far inferior.

3. If you are right, that one can do the same thing as PC's, only better, with ILT then I would disagree with your last statement that PC's have their place. If that were the case, PC's would be an expensive waste of time and the fraud I have been trying to perpetrate on you unsuspecting people would have been exposed years ago. Certainly enough people have tried, some of them actually post here (at least they used to). Do you remember some of those debates? gee, isn't that how you came to have your "brief" encounter with them? But, I digress.

4. And, can you explain to me why one "cannot do ILT's properly while using PC's"? One can pedal with one leg if one wants to and one can even unclip one foot and put it on a stool if one wanted to with PC's on the bike. Why one would want too I am not sure but it certainly is possible if it can be shown there is an advantage.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: holy crap i just dropped 800 big ones for a set of pcs [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
I'm sure Frank can tell us the % that gets returned, and I think he may have at least once before. I do vaguely remember it being a very small %age.
[/reply]

About 2-3 in a thousand return them. One of those (sojourner) actually posts regularly here.

Regarding ebay, a warning for those of you interested in the two cranks up right now. The first one is advertised as having sold for retail for $899 and is currently above $600. I have never sold that model (or any model that I can remember) cranks for $899.

The second one somes with a Shimano DA BB but the cranks are old and TS. While old DA was TS these were usually "low profile" and incompatible with the PC's. Unless that is a triple DA TS BB it is probably incompatible with the PC's advertised. Further, those cranks are really old. While they could work just fine, aluminum does have a fatigue life and if those have been ridden hard one may not get a lot of life out of them. If interested ask questions. Good luck.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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