So what are we looking at? €10k?

I did a fairly std config (sram red axs) on their site, and it came to $13k usd.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

You're annoyed that a very popular high end bike component company now makes a high end and expensive bike that costs about the same or less than many custom frames?

+1

I honestly don't understand why people by Enve products. They are grossly over priced, which I know doesn't stop people. What I don't get is that the wheels are not very light weight and they rarely show up as top wheels to buy. 1500+ grams for $2500+ for mountain bike wheels. I just put Light Bicycle wheels on my racing mountain bike 1350 grams for $1000. That's with DT Swiss 240s. I could go lighter if I wasn't such a fat butt. Same for my new gravel road wheels. I spent a lot of time researching new wheels these past couple of months (bought new XC and gravel wheels) and Enve rarely showed up. The ones that did were heavy and expensive.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

“Grossly over priced” is an opinion. I just bought a set of Enve wheels for a new build. I love the look, finish, etc. Everyone has different reasons. Is a Mercedes overpriced? Depends on who you ask.

Mercedes performs. It distinguishes itself from lower priced options.

I personally don't see how Enve distinguishes itself from lower priced options. You mention the look and finish. That's fine. However, I'm coming from the perspective of racing. I'm not interested in look or finish. I want performance. If their rims were some super stellar product they would have showed up in the research I did, but they did not. All the reviews talk about is how great they 'look'. Look and finish don't help maximize my performance so I'm not interested in paying a premium price for looking good. Majority of carbon rims are black and many now have muted graphics. So they all look the same.

If you want to spend that much on look and finish, so be it. That's fine. Your money, your bike. We all have our different preferences.

Note: my research was for gravel and XC wheels not aero wheels.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

I think you'll find that in some circles that's the entire point.....which is pathetic
Not an exact analogy, but it reminds me of the scene in American Psycho where they're comparing their business cards.

I could understand if it were a luxury good but I don't see Enve as a luxury good.

With Assos, another extreme, you can point to countless industry reviews and customer reviews that rave about comfort and durability. There is something tangible. But damn you pay for it. With Enve, I've never heard anything about them. No raving industry reviews other than 'looks'. No raving customer reviews. They don't really have a reputation. They are just there.

But whatever. We all have our goofy preferences.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

just because you haven't heard of this brand's reputation doesn't mean it doesn't have one. it just means you haven't heard of it. we wrote about this new project the day before this thread was started, and in there we linked to a few articles we've written on the factory and the brand. it's a premium brand held in high regard, and it has a tradition of building frame sub-assemblies, so, this bike is not a stretch.

i have a problem with this bike, but the problem is not with the brand or the price or the construction or any of that. these guys have well-earned the right to be taken seriously as a bike maker, every bit as much or more than parlee or allied or guru before it or anyone who's done what it is they do. my problem is that i don't like one-piece bar/stem combos.

but if you look at what you're getting here, full custom, for a price starting at under $10,000 (and it's a good spec for that price), show me who's making that bike for less money? who's making full custom, including handlebars, carbon bikes, electronic shifting, for under $10,000? maybe you just think $10,000 for any road bike is too much and, okay. but for what they're making, i think that's a pretty good price.

this weekend i rolled up to an establishment called "the old place" in the middle of the santa monica mountains, and it's full of LA cyclists halfway thru their rides, and i was on a brand new, first ride, QR SRsix, i just finished hanging the parts the day before, SRAM force AXS etap, and out of probably 40 bikes i think i could count on one hand the bikes that costs less than mine. i was aboard the ford pinto. so, it might not be your idea of a worthy spend, nor mine, but in my opinion they do have a stellar reputation, and there is a market for that bike.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah, true full custom is expensive no matter the product.

In my golf days I had custom clubs. You buy the iron heads (only 2 thru pw mind you) then buy separate shafts with the right flex. Then get fitted. Then the shafts are custom cut for your fit and swing "kick point" you want. So each shaft is cut differently given some are longer or shorter. Then the grips.

That's not including wedges, or the woods, or putter.

At one point my refurbished Newport 2 Scotty was worth probably $500.

Well my post focused on the wheel sets from Enve You say they are a premium brand...but the research doesn't really show anything other than appearance and build quality. The majority of industry reviews did mention they are priced above competing lines. I don't recall any mention as a premium brand. Even their "about us" page on the website is only one paragraph that says really nothing about them.

To me, Enve brand is no different than Zipp, Reynolds, etc.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

well, i'll grant you that. i don't think enve is better than zipp. i would say tho that i think its above reynolds, mostly because i think enve is more of an innovator. i guess i hold zipp in higher regard than do you. i guess i wonder what you think is a true premium wheel brand if zipp and enve aren't.

beyond that, it seems to me that hed and enve are the only 2 brands that can actually make a bike from the wheels up to the handlebars, frame included. enve is probably the most complete carbon bike factory in the world, if you consider all the bike parts it makes, and what it can build if asked. what this new bike isn't is a monocoque, so, it depends what it is you value. also, i think it's fair to question the need for a full custom these days for a variety of reasons we could discuss.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

And aero. Enve camps out near the top of just about every independent wind tunnel test I've ever seen where Enve was included. Right alongside the other best-in-class aero wheel manufacturers, i.e. Zipp, HED.

And warranty/crash replacement. Also best in class there.

I've never bought or used an Enve wheel, fwiw, mostly because of price - so I'm not totally disagreeing with you. Just think you're being way over the top in criticism.

Though after I just destroyed a high end wheel on my second week of use (my fault - savage pothole at 40MPH), suddenly I'm eyeballing that no-questions replacement policy.

exactly. or how about their lifetime incident protection? I just don't get why people get so up in arms about expensive brands. And enough people agree that enve is worth it for them, otherwise they wouldn't be so busy. It's just basic economics, isn't it?

Correct. Something that sells like hot cakes cannot be “overpriced” by any stretch of the imagination. Usually when people say “grossly overpriced” what they really mean is “I can’t afford it” or “I don’t want to spend that much”.

1. You are comparing an American brand with known customer support vs. a Chinese brand with lesser reputation (though the most reputable of its segment)
2. Stated warranty is quite difference in both length and duration. You might not care about that, but that's certainly something some people care about
3. you are comparing wheels of different rim width. Enve has a set of wheels (M5) that are narrow width and lighter. Why did they not show up on your search. Don't know, but it's there.
4. On top of being an American company, Enve products are made in the USA (Utah). That might not matter to you... but that matters to others
5. Research and aero wheels.... Enve's reputation for research and it's characteristics in speed and crowsswind handling are well known
6. I don't think any reputable bike shop in my area stocks and sells light cycles. That matters to some and distribution costs money
7. Status sure.... why not... Does it matter to you? probably not. Does it matter to others? probably for some

I am not saying Enve is the bees knees. Ther'es the pinbike review where the wheels fail, and Luescher's comparison of Chinese vs. Enve rim, but those are rather small sample sizes. And many would still trust a name brand over a Chinese brand. I don't ride carbon wheels on my mtb bike, but if I do, I'd choose bontrager over lightweight, but that's just me. Others will choose differently, and that's understandable.

So... maybe you don't understand why people buy Enve products. Here are some reasons, and maybe they don't resonate with you, and that's why we have different brand of products.

Most of us here don't win any races or have complete retired from racing (hell, I was only able to afford expensive bikes after my collegiate days and am in progressively worse shape). Yet ,many of us have bikes that would considered senselessly expensive by most people. Do the bikes make us fitter? no. Are carbon bikes more fragile than steel bikes? hell yes. Do I have multiple of them and still want more? hell yes.

I am the a-typical consumer. I needed new XC and gravel wheels. I do not follow industry news on where wheels are at, so I need to use Google to find industry reviews and need to use forums to get recommendations. When I was researching my wheels I was looking for performance first budget second. I am a researcher by trade, so yes spreadsheets were involved.

I didn't really rank wheels on brand, but instead on performance. Zipp, Hed and Reynolds showed up in the top consistently (industry reviews). I hold Zipp in high regard because it appears they are always innovating. They also came highly recommended in forums.

I would group Zipp, Hed and Reynolds together. Not sure if I would call them premium brands, maybe market leaders. I guess it could be argued market leaders are premium brands.

Then next batch of manufacturers are the independents. Hunt, Light Bicycle, Flo, and some others I forgot. Hunt and LB showed up a lot in reviews and forums.

Then there are the manufacturers that would show up in random industry reviews or forum recommendations. We can all them the"one offs": Roval, Mavic, Enve, etc.

Finally, the brands that really showed up nowhere in my research: Boyd, Lightweight, Mercury, BTLOS, etc.

I used the phrase 'grossly overpriced' because of who I was comparing Enve too. I am looking at MC vs MB. It was way out of whack compared to the others. Maybe if I made more of an effort to figure out why they cost so much I could boost their MB. But I'm the consumer. Zipp, Reynolds, Hed, Flo,etc. they GIVE you that information. It's in your face: performance performance performance. Enve provided none of that and given the price, it was easy to set them on the side and focus on other brands. Enve did a poor job selling their product to me. Maybe they are geared toward the rider that is more plugged into the industry. I may do over 15 races a season, but I don't stay plugged into all the latest and greatest. I plug in when I need something.

If I were looking for aero wheels, maybe things would be different. That's a more hands on purchase. I didn't care about aero in my last two purchases.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

it's funny you write as you do, because my impression is that ENVE goes out of its way to explain its tech, why it makes what it makes, why it works, and i think they do so because they - much like HED - tend to be on the leading edge of wheel theory, and that requires them to prosecute the case behind their tech. they, along with HED, were well in front of everyone on road tubeless, wider inner bead diameters, and they were uniquely out front on hookless beads. they have, almost by themselves, defined what wheel testing is (or should be, and probably will be) with their testing lab.

they don't have the longevity of a zipp or a HED, and unlike HED they "sold out" to a larger conglomerate, but so did zipp, and most of SRAM's constituent brands. i haven't seen ENVE cutting corners to please a bean counter.

that said, i don't think it's a requirement to spend $2,500 on a wheelset, like the ENVE G27 that i ride in my gravel bike. i wrote about a set of HED emporias that do the job very nicely for around $800.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I pretty much agree with you here. While I wouldn't pay for ENVE and question the motivation of those who do, I'm not suggesting ENVE don't make good wheels. However, I don't believe they deserve the premium they charge. I'd go for HED.

When I see something like a no questions asked replacement policy, I don't necessarily see it as a good thing. If I never avail of it, doesn't that mean I funded those who did?

If your research does not indicate that ENVE is one of the premier brands out there, then I'd question your research methods. I've never even considered purchasing a set of ENVE's and have no idea what their product line looks like, but I've heard of them and know they have a good rep for making a quality product.

Oh, be careful relying on "industry reviews". I don't know exactly what you mean there, but if you're talking about magazines/websites doing reviews, well, I trust those as far as I can throw you.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

i have this conversation with folks about insurance. i have a life insurance policy, on which my wife will probably not collect, because i bought it 15 years ago and it expires next year. (the thought then was that i'd have 15 years to no longer need a life insurance policy, and it's pretty well worked that way.) i have an extended warranty on my truck. i may never "use" it. but then...

i use that life insurance policy, and the extended warranty, every day. i've known for 14 years that if i die, i don't leave my family in the lurch. that's how good warranties work. they don't simply protect you if something goes wrong. they grant you solace that you're protected if something does go wrong.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

We, as consumers, just aren't equipped to be able to decipher those indirect costs. Maybe Enve's crash replacement policy drives enough additional volume that the economies of scale are a net benefit to even those who don't actually use it.

Same with Specialized's immense marketing budget, etc.

this thread really turned into an assault on enve...not sure why. many other brands make products just as if not more expensive than theirs, and theirs aren't custom - they're stock builds. I just wanted to say that I read and watched all the stuff on my usual bike media outlets about this new bike, and honestly I was impressed. as dan said somewhere earlier in the thread, considering what you get for the price, it's actually not a bad value compared to other similarly priced bikes. which lets face it, most major brands have bikes at or above this price. And they aren't custom paint (save for trek/orbea/QR/maybe limited few others), and certainly don't have customizable geometry. If i won the lottery and had the money to buy a bike in this price range, I'd consider enve's custom road for sure.

I have no problem with brands having expensive, halo-level products. i feel sad I can't afford them for about 2 seconds, then i get over it and move on with my life. some folks want em, can buy em, and that's great. doesn't bother me.