Another OT post and another opportunity for me to get back on my Canadian high horse and preach to you Americans.

We have much stricter hand gun control in Canada than in the USA. Consequently we have a proportionally lower per capita homicide rate, as does every country that has resticted hand gun laws. So the arguement "guns don't kill, people do" holds no water IMO. The statistics speak for themselves.

Unfortunately our criminals can easily import illegal guns from the states and we're seeing a rise of gun related homicides in the Toronto area as of late.

Our federal government has made a ridiculous blunder with their national gun registry program. It was designed to register every gun in Canada, hobbiests, collectors and even the farmer with a shotgun above his chicken. So far this insane project has wasted two billion dollars of taxpayers money and has done nothing to prevent the rise of illegal guns - as if our feds expected criminals to register their guns in the program. Rather than admitting they've made a huge gaff, the feds are trying to save face and are still continuing with this shameful waste of taxpayer money.

Despite this, the Canadian situation with strict hand gun laws is preferable to the US situation IMO.

I think many Americans would also like to see at least some form of hand gun controls in their country. Personally I doubt if it likely to happen because too many American politicians and bought and paid for by the NRA.

While I agree I also think things would be a bit different if people knew that every household owned and knew how to operate a handgun. Granted I don't believe in stirring people in the correct direction by using fear...

---

---

"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

Washington DC and Chicago have had handgun bans for many years. You can safely walk in any part of those cities at any time of night.

http://www.cnn.com/.../01/city.murders.ap/

Recently this poor fellow was on a group ride in his aerobars. The group slowed for traffic, he couldn't get to his brakes quick enough & caused a massive pileup injuring many riders. Obviously we should ban aerobars. P.S., The poor victim is now sueing the aerobar manufacturer. His atty is being paid for by towns who are tired of seeing spandex clad hordes clogging their streets. Hope your happy your tax dollars are being used to put the aerobar industry out of business.

P.S., If your afraid of getting shot while stealing from your neighbors, just move to Canada. I'll even help you pack & wave goodbye.

the last time i was i washington dc walking at night i did not feel safe

<<So the arguement "guns don't kill, people do" holds no water IMO. The statistics speak for themselves. >>

Yes. The statistics speak clearly that automobiles are responsible for killing thousands upon thousands of lives each year. Automobiles should be outright banned! We have tried a progressive level of registration and licensing and regulation at all levels of government yet these killing machines manufactured solely for the profit of a corportation continue their wonton destruction of our society. The reason automobiles remain on the roads free to indescriminately kill is because of lobbies like the Automobile Associaton of America. If it were not for the AAA, we would have banned automobiles long ago. I dream of a day when society no longer has to live in fear of being mowed down by some four wheeled two ton killing machine.

AUTOMOBILES KILL!!! WHEN IS SOCIETY GOING TO GET THE MESSAGE??? WE MUST GET THESE EVIL DEVICES OFF OUR ROADS IF WE WANT TO BE SAFE!!!! AUTOMOBILES ARE ONLY GOOD FOR KILLING INNOCENCT PEOPLE. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT ANYBODY NEEDS AN AUTOMOBILE TO SURVIVE.

Brett

CG,

Great post - I am with you. As you know I am also from Canada, and not sure about why American's do what they do on the issue of firearms.

My view is more pragmatic - If you are not a hunter, a competitive biathlete or a historical gun collector, why or earth do you need a gun at all? The aformentioned people represent less than 5% of the population. So, why is it that siginificantly more people in the US and in Canada have guns?

I am curious of what American's thought/think of Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" Doc. Moore is known for going over-the-top, but if even 50% of what he said/showed in the doc was true, it's still a rather disturbing commentary.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

<<why or earth do you need a gun at all>>

Why do you need kitchen knives? A car? A bicycle? A Television?

Brett

Thanks to recent law changes, many more Michigan residents can now legally carry concealed handguns. Since the law went into effect, violent crime rates have gone down as they have in every other one of the 39 states that have made these concealed carry law changes. Does this mean that more guns equal less crime? Maybe. Maybe not. But clearly, more guns do not equal more crime. Americans own more guns now than ever before and violent crime rates are universally down from their peaks. Again, more guns does not equate to more violence.

The high homicide rate in the US is largely the result of the drug trade and gangs of the inner cities. Take those numbers out of the equation and leave the rest of us gun-toting bubbas alone with our gun collections and our homicide rate would be similar to the "more civilized" countries of the world where only criminals are allowed to own guns.

All that said, in general, defending property with deadly force is legally and morally wrong, unless somebody tries to steal my bike the day before a race.

Sorry southern neighbors, but I'm entitled to stay on my high horse over this one a little longer. Canadian per captita homicide stats are 1/3 of what they are in the US. It may not be the only reason, but I'll rest my case that stricter hand gun control equals less murders. These stats aren't lying:

http://www.statcan.ca/.../011031/d011031b.htm

Are you suggesting that you think it's normal to KILL someone who is stealing your car???

Dude, you need to rethink your moral values...you are going to KILL someone who steals a car that is insured and that your insurance will pay for anyway? Why because you cannot bear that ugly feeling when someone steals something from you and you feel helpless, you using a gun is the solution because you feel powerful....

I tell you what, if you are all like this here, I will pack my own stuff to move to Canada.

PS that said, the moron sueing the aerobar manufacturer story is very revealing of the sueing mentality...but it's certainly not the tax $$ that are responsible, it's that moronic attitude to sue people because you cannot envision to be responsible for anything you do.

<<Sorry southern neighbors, but I'm entitled to stay on my high horse over this one a little longer. Canadian per captita homicide stats are 1/3 of what they are in the US. It may not be the only reason, but I'll rest my case that stricter hand gun control equals less murders. These stats aren't lying: >>



So wait, Ceveloguy, are rates of firearm related violence (guns have wheels and a crew of three) going up or going down in Canada? I thought they were going up because of the Unites States' permissive firearms laws (or lack there of) yet now you are claiming that Canadian laws are far more effective at reducing violence. Up or down? Thanks.

Brett

OK, I'll bite!

Kitchen Knives - to cut the food on my plate

Car - to drive to work, to other places, my cottage up north and to triathlon races

Bicycle - to ride to work on nice days, to go for long rides with my friends

TV - I have one, but don't have cable, so it does not get much use.

A Gun - ???? What would I need gun for in my life? I can't think of any application or use. I don't hunt, I am not a farmer, a competitive biathlete or a gun collector.

If you have a gun, why do you have one? Are you a hunter, farmer, competitive biathlete or a gun collector?

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

yes, I don't believe you have a right to use deadly force to defend property. However, in this case, my understanding of the situation is that the homeowner confronted two thieves. One turned and pointed something at him. He fired, then chase the other person off of his property, firing into the air. While I don't think this was the smartest thing to do, I think he cold sucessfully argue justification. It's a bad place to be, but this is one example of what can happen when people feel they are not adequately protected by local law enforcement. I don't think having concealed weapons helps and in answer to the argument that gun violence is down on those areas that sanction it, I don't believe fear is an effective way of handling human interaction.

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

following someone out and shooting them again is definitely murder. As a gun owner and holder of a concealed carry permit, you have to understand the laws if you are going to have a handgun. If you ever HAVE to shoot someone you better make sure that the verb applies. You have to...your life HAS to be in eminent danger. If it isn't, then self defense doesn't apply. Defense of property doesn't apply (at least in my state) unless a weapon is being used by the other party (dont' know about them trying to kill you with their bare hands). If somebody kicks in your door and says 'excuse me sir, I am not here to hurt you, but I am going to just carry this television out." you would probably be better off kicking his ass than trying to shoot him, otherwise you might be the one who goes to jail.

---

_________________________________________________
That is just one more group of people that should be thrown screaming from a helicopter- George Carlin

in this particular case, yes. it was a stupid move from the thief (besides stealing) but I was answering Matt who wrote "if you are afraid of being shot while stealing..." clearly suggesting that you should shoot someone for robbing you...

huh??

Francois,



As usually happens in these OT posts, you've read something into my statement. I do not advocate using deadly force to protect property & my moral values are just fine thank you. Obviously both instances involved an illegal use of deadly force. I would however observe that the possibility of deadly force being applied is a strong detterent to a would be thief.

I hate OT posts at Slowtwitch in general, but got drawn into this one because someone cites a couple of instances of improper use of a handgun and advocates restricting a right I feel strongly about. As I expected, my moral values got attacked, my country got attacked etc. I can spend the next couple of days posting instances of handguns being used properly in caes of self defense, but I do not believe Slowtwitch is the proper forum for this.

in self defense I would understand...not sure I would use it myself but I would understand.

sorry if I misinterpreted your post.

Hunter, Gun collector, recreational shooter.

---

_________________________________________________
That is just one more group of people that should be thrown screaming from a helicopter- George Carlin

Firearm related violence is on the rise in Canada, but this stat is being driven by gang- related violence in the large urban areas( Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver). If take those number out of the picture the fire-arm violence in Canada is quite low and only a small fraction of the number of deaths in the US.

It's interseting to compare large boarder cities such as Detroit/Windsor. I am not sure of the exact numbers but I believe that there are typically less than 10 gun-shot deaths in Windsor, Canada each year and over 300 in Detroit, USA. The two cities are a 2 minute drive and a boarder crossing apart. Why the huge difference?

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

did you see shooting for columbine?

I think it was the two cities that Moore was comparing.

Good post Matt! While all human life should be valued, a criminal that gets iced while committing a crime is petty low on the value scale, maybe just above child/women abusers and terrorists. That said, I think that the pistol packing homeowner did his community a favor. He turned a miscreant thief into a corpse and probably did more to change the ways of the other rascal than any probation officer ever will. One can't imagine the Christianizing effects of HydroShocks whizzing by your head!! Word will probably be amongst the criminal element to pick a new and safer target environment, maybe Canada?? Head north young man.

Fleck,

Why do you own a bike? Maybe because you enjoy riding it. Or maybe because you use it in your hobby of triathlon. A lot of people enjoy target shooting, which is also a hobby.

A lot of people own guns to protect themselves and their families in their own homes. Don't break into my house and try to commit a crime and you don't have to worry about getting shot. But if someone does I'm going to use everything I got to stop them.

Criminals will always have access to guns.

For all of you in the U.S. who are so "fed up" with our laws MOVE. Nobody's making you stay. Stop the liberal complaining and whining, and get used to it because nothing is going to change.

"I don't believe fear is an effective way of handling human interaction. "

Certainly not! Wouldn't want any potential murderers, rapists, muggers, child molesters, etc, to be afraid of anything.