I can understand that it won't go through the valve. But with the valve core removed, it's a pretty large hole to the inside of the tire ... it's over .150"

I believe that it won't go in even with the core removed.

The carbon threads in the sealant plug the valve. I tried, and the damn things clogged the little bottle with a nozzle once it was down to 3/16". Their first batch of sealant had some issues with mixing during bottling, it was clogging the filling equipment's 2" nozzles... The mixing issue has been resolved, and the addition of their refresher (which can be injected through the the valve stem) should release the carbon balls. All of that is according to their recent blog post.

Some wheels/tires are easier than others. Pirellis on my HED Vanquishes were easy once I got most of the tire seated and dumped sealant into the tire then closed it up.

This weekend, I helped a friend mount GP5Ks on OEM BMC carbon rims and it was a frigging nightmare, it took 4 hands, a bead jack and some busted knuckles.

The miss on those OEM wheels was the lack of a center channel for the tire bead to drop into.

I have zero experience with ZIPP wheels, but both sets of HEDs I have been easy, no harder than mounting a tubed set up, and I haven't had a flat in years.

I have had trouble with vittoria corsas getting seated (too loose) and I think I could have added tape to fix the issue, but opted for new tires instead of reusing last year's tires.

Lastly, I followed Josh's recommendation of putting a drop of their synergetic lube on the threads of the valve cores and they are now in and out with ease, no tools, just grab and spin.

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I tend to agree with all that you'd posted, above. I don't tend to flat, either racing or training, and if anything even minor happens to my tires when racing, my race effectively is over, anyway. I'm not giving up much--if anything--running latex tubes, and I don't want to deal with all of the faffing around with tubeless when it's easier and quicker for me to swap in a tube, if ever necessary.

What might get me to consider moving to tubeless is the ability to use the Vittoria inserts, which means that I don't have to worry about the tire rolling off the rim, if I ever flat. As one who has been racing for lots of years, I still get nervous about flatting a clincher at speed, something that was less concerning when I used tubulars for training and racing. The Vittoria insert should keep the tire locked to the rim in the event of a puncture. And worst case, I might even be able to trundle back to the start if I can't fix the tire.

Didn't read the entire discussion, but the goodyear F1's were very hard to seat on my i9 35's -- 21mm inside width, mounted bunches of times before with other tires from 23's to 42's - sometimes it's the tire. Needed a compressor to seat them!

I switched to tubeless last year. For a long time I was 100% against tubeless for roadbikes, but now I would not go back

HOWEVER, here is my cautionary tale:
4 weeks ago, I was doing my last ride before challenge Roth. I was flying, setting PBs all over the place. The final 5km is a 400m (1300ft) descent on a super fast, super smooth road, with nice flowing corners. Completely unbeknown to me, a sliver of glass went into my front tire. Since I was on tubeless, the tire sealed, however, with each rotation, the glass let a little air out of my tire. As the road was so smooth, I did not notice the the front tire was gradually getting softer. About 75% of the way down, there is a left hand bend, I can take the bend pretty easily at 50kph (30mph), as I approached it, at 70kph (45mph), I hit the brake and began turning into the corner. The tire didn't have enoug pressure to take the load and the front wheel skidded out from under me. I fell heavily at 62kph (40kph) and dislocated my shoulder with a grade 3 AC joint separation

If I wasn't using tubeless, the glass would have flatted the tire much earlier.... maybe I would have lost control on a faster section and crashed heavily. On a rougher road, I would probably have noticed that the tire was going soft. However, it was a learning experience for me to watch out when using tubeless tires, you can lose pressure and should always pay attention, especially before big descents

I've had my fair share of issues with tubeless. I've gone back and forth between tubeless setups and clinchers w/ a latex tube. After some recent flats over the last few months on tubes, I just mounted some new gp5000s tr tires on some aeolus rsl wheels setup tubeless. Mounted and seated the wheels with no issues in less than 5 min. No air compressor needed. Injected some sealant... front tire had no problem holding air overnight. Back tire took some finesse to get the tire to hold air over night (less than 10 psi drop). After swearing off tubeless multiple times before, this restored a little faith in it. I think it really boils down to finding the right combination of wheels and tires that make life easy for you.

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Pretty much my technique as well. For problem tires I'll remove the valve stem and blast with my air compressor with the presta valve removed... to get it to seat. I'll put my thumb over the stem and then put the stem back in to let it set for a bit.

Not sure I'd use Silca if it requires you to add it directly to the tire. Been using Truckerco Cream 2 for years... road and mountain bike.

I'll caveat this by saying I don't really race anymore, so I don't care about a few watts, but I have Mavic UST systems on my road and gravel bikes and have never had an issue. I stick with Mavic tires, which I admit is limiting, but they just work.

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I had issues with my stock wheels as well. Too easy to put the tire on (without air I could take it off with two fingers), not seating straight, leaking fluid, issues with holding pressure and the tire came off two times after a jump (on a MTB) with a crash and a long walk home afterwards. I replaced the wheels with DT Swiss and all problems vanished. In a couple of minutes tires that seat straight away, hold pressure even without latex and I can jump without being scared the tire would come off. There is a huge difference between cheap and decent in my opinion.

I feel the same way. Tubes road tires have never been an issue for me and dealing with a puncture that won't seal with sealant can be a mess. That said, riding a MTB with tubes is miserable.

Reading thru this thread, I'm reminded of why I stopped riding tubular tires...except I can't remember what that was?

"Some tires weep through the sidewall for a long time."

Yeah if my bike turns into an Edgar Allan Poe story I am not doing it. Tubes for me. In all seriousness, I ride roads that I know, close to home, am in no need of watts (no hope of podiums), ride most miles on the trainer, and even just a little extra complication was too much for me to deal with.

If I were a roadie or at the front edge of the pack, I bet I'd go tubeless.

Sounds similar to my first time installing tubeless! I think the first tire took ~45min! Thankfully, I've gotten better with the installation process over time. The key 'trick' for me was to spray the rims with soapy water before inflating. With that, I've been able to successfully mount all kinds of MTB, gravel, and road tires on hooked and hookless rims (and only using a standard pump)

I helped a buddy set up his 303s in the spring with gravel tires and it went fine. I also used a syringe to put Stans sealant through the valve stem (much less mess).

...it gets easier with experience!

I have practiced too much swapping tubeless. Both of my boys do cross and road/crit on the same bike (bikes are expensive and they keep growing but are at least slowing).

There is a 1.5-2 month span every year for a few years now where I have fun swapping road and cross tires each for weekday road and weekend cross races. 40-50 swapped tires. You get it down.

I recently converted my TT bike to tubeless, for use in triathlons after having running tubeless on my gravel bike (which I ride ~90% on pavement) and mountain bike over the past 2 years. It's been great with zero downsides on all 3 bikes. In a race this past weekend on my TT bike, I lost ~2-3 psi between when I pumped the tires up in transition (~90 psi) before the race and after I collected the bike after the race (around 5-6 hrs later). Super minimal and well worth it for me. I'll never go back.

I went tubeless about 8 years ago and my experience is the same as you.

Every time I read a thread like this I almost get a little anxious. I think "Did I do something wrong here because I've not had any of the problems that people seem to have or are afraid of?"

The only issue I've ever had is that I did a kind of crappy tape job on a rear race wheel. If I did a race where it was left out overnight and the temp range was big, the rear tire seemed to deflate. Not a big deal because I would just pump it up. But aside from that, I honestly see no downside to tubeless.

At that rate you should buy the alternate wheelset. Even for rpricey ones at $2k, it's worth it.

It really is just a 10-15 minute job. We knock it out pretty quickly

My first sortie with tubeless. Purchased pre owned wheels already set up tubeless. Pumped up overnight before morning ride. Rear tire was flat. No obvious source of leak, no visible sealant. Tried to deflate rest of air but sealant coming out of value. Removed value and sealant erupted out like a volcano. Removed tire and cleaned everything. Not that easy to get tire back on rim. Had to use two removal tools. Pretty much impossible not to nick up the decals. Added 2 oz. of Orange Seal. As soon as I tried to pump up tires the sealant was leaking out of the sides. Repeated steps above except admitted defeat and installed a tube so I could ride. Reading through this thread I know I made many rookie mistakes. Still, left with the impression tubeless is more of a hassle than it is worth. Only question is once the seal is broken what can you do reseal it?

Every bike I own is set up tubeless, including all of my road bikes. I've been using tubeless setups on the road excusively since late 2018, I've completed something on the order of 30 different tubeless setups myself on road bikes, gravel bikes, mountain bikes and fat bikes. I am a believer in the technology after many, many thousands of miles of using road tubeless. For reference, I typically run 28s on the road at 74/77 psi F/R.

My tubeless opinions:
1. If you can't get the bead to seat, spray the bead down with soapy water / any cleaner on hand and try to pump it back up again. The beads should then snap into place more easily.
2. If you have a lot of bikes that are set up tubeless, buy a cheap compressor and a Prestaflator. This costs about the same as a tubeless chamber pump and makes mounting any tire really easy.
3. The biggest annoyance with tubeless for me is the tape. Tubeless tape is very fragile, annoyingly expensive, a pain to get seated correctly, prone to moving when you mount a tire, prone to leaking over time etc. A better option for me is rims with a solid rim bed. Mavic pioneered this design with the UST design, Shimano's "Road Tubeless" standard is also based on a solid rim bed. Manufacturers like Farsports and Light Bicycle offer good quality carbon rims with solid rim beds. Downside: if you break a spoke, it's harder to fix... athough if you break a spoke on a taped setup you have to pull the tape, fix the spoke and then retape... so maybe it's a wash.
4. In my opinion, hookless rims on the road aren't as versatile as hooked rims. The tire limitations and pressure limits are minor annoyances but stil annoyances. All else being equal, I'll get a hooked rim for road use. Note: I actually prefer hookless for lower pressure applications like gravel and MTB. In my experience hookless rims seem significantly stronger in the rim wall than hooked rims.
5. Dynaplugs work a bit better than Stan's Darts athough both work pretty well.
6. I've had good luck with regular od Stan's sealant. I run 74/77 psi F/R on the road and I've had Stan's seal up small punctures just fine even there. I put the sealant in through the valve stem after mounting the tire, seating the beads and pulling the valve core. I have not tried the Silca stuff yet.
7. I usually use Conti 5KTLs or Maxxis High Road black sidewall tires, both are very reliable. The only tires I've tried that weeped sealant at the sidewall were the otherwise excellent Rene Herse tires I once used on a gravel bike. IMO, black sidewall tires are a bit more reliabe than skin wall tires.

I agree with tape being a pain. I have tried caffelatex rim strip on MTBs and so far it's much more convenient than tape. A few grams more and more expensive, but then it's reusable.

That sounds like a tough fall and bad luck, sorry!

I went tubeless for about 6 months but couldn't deal with the upkeep of new sealant, pain in the ass putting on new tyres, and sealant spraying when flatting.

I am happy with LaTeX tubes and clinchers. Takes me less than 5 min to change incase of a flat. Easier to deal with in races. If a tyre goes in a race, it's pretty much game over.

Look at the ST poll, looks like over 50% of voters still want clincher/tubes.

The Rene Here tan wall tires are really bad at weeping. It's almost impossible to keep the narrower ones inflated for more than a few hours, the wider one with lower pressure seem to a little better, but still losing air pretty fast. This happens even after more than a year of use.

This is 2022 and we're still fucking around with this shit technology. I've never used tubeless, but have read about so many people having issues. I'm sure people will argue "rookie mistakes", but seriously it shouldn't be this hard. For every person that states they've had no issues with tubeless and never flatted despite riding on roads covered in razors, glass and syringes, there are 20 that have had issues. I'm kind of getting the impression that people on ST that rate tubeless are somehow connected to tyre companies as I'm yet to actually meet someone in real life who is happy with them and still uses them. The only ones I know who used them have gone back to clinchers or tubs.