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drafting - the objective reality
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For everyone getting busted up (or just hugging) about this, read the second half of this blog.

You can rage about drafting all you want, but is an unavoidable reality of ironman racing in its current format, whatever the rules say.

http://blog.trisutto.com/ag-deserve-a-fair-race-in-kona/


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Re: drafting - the objective reality [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:

For everyone getting busted up (or just hugging) about this, read the second half of this blog.

You can rage about drafting all you want, but is an unavoidable reality of ironman racing in its current format, whatever the rules say.

http://blog.trisutto.com/ag-deserve-a-fair-race-in-kona/


Is Kona worse than IMTX was this year?
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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That I don't know.

But someone (Rafal Medak) has done the maths in a clear way.

It may be slightly skewed in Kona due to the quality of the athletes, but the premise is the same. There isn't enough room on the course.

You can either allow drafting, allow soft drafting (penalise close wheel suckers only for the first half perhaps), or run it as a much more spread out time trial.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry but that is wrong. I have done Kona 3x, and did TX on Sat, and have done other races where it was 'impossible to avoid', and in all cases, it was very POSSIBLE to not draft. Those who say differently are just providing themselves and others like them an excuse to cheat.



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Re: drafting - the objective reality [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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I don't really care if it's possible or not possible to not draft anymore. The optics of it whether it's intentional or not is that more and more of these races are turning into draftfests. And that's even occurring at the biggest race of them all- Kona. ETA: It kinda reminds me of the guy standing on a mound of dirt in a flood, "nothing to see here" as he's about to get swallowed up by the rising water. At some point, we have to figure out a way to actually combat this issue, other than saying "it's avoidable".....Ok but we see more and more of it occurring, so whether they are all cheaters or not, let's find a way to make it more punishable to create a much fairer method.

Now of course, making it drafting won't occur (atleast not for a long time), but I think it's time to reevaluate the rules. We can say til we are blue in the face, you don't have to draft, and then we'll still find people drafting and getting away with it. So either we come up with new rules, or you stick to your guns of drafting is avoidable and some of those guys drafting in the pack that just passed you are going to beat you unfairly.

So whether that means we pay $1200 for a IM race so that we can have 38 moto officials, or add in new technology, just saying it's avoidable isn't an proper solution anymore for *some* of these courses.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 3, 18 8:02
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree, and think there should be paid marshals on WTC owned motorbikes that issue much more painful penalties. The first should be 15min, the second should be a 5km penalty loop at T2 or something that make them burn energy rather than sitting around recovering....Big penalties and a pro marshal team would go a long way in policing and incentivizing the right behaviors.

In Kona, I know lots of guys who plan to risk the penalties as they are now, as they are so weak in compared to the benefit of drafting. They are no deterrence even if the course is marshaled well.



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Re: drafting - the objective reality [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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CPT Chaos wrote:
Sorry but that is wrong. I have done Kona 3x, and did TX on Sat, and have done other races where it was 'impossible to avoid', and in all cases, it was very POSSIBLE to not draft. Those who say differently are just providing themselves and others like them an excuse to cheat.

The math says it isn't possible for everyone to avoid drafting though. put that many people on the course in that timeframe and there has to be drafting, at least early in the race.

But, because the draft packs do form it creates space for some people to ride cleanly. So, you're kind of correct, in that it is possible for individuals to not draft, and it is an individual choice to draft at races like that, but at the same time it is impossible for there to be zero drafting at the race.

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Re: drafting - the objective reality [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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CPT Chaos wrote:
Sorry but that is wrong. I have done Kona 3x, and did TX on Sat, and have done other races where it was 'impossible to avoid', and in all cases, it was very POSSIBLE to not draft. Those who say differently are just providing themselves and others like them an excuse to cheat.

Have you looked at the maths.

This isn't up for debate, it IS reality for the majority of competitors at Kona.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, in the first 10k (or maybe a bit longer at a race like Kona, things are super busy and free air is hard to find), but that is just the beginning of a 180km (hopefully) ride. I would give 10km out of 180km on any day if it meant that the 170km was truly fair.



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Re: drafting - the objective reality [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Enforcement isn't the issue, there isn't the room on the course to avoid it in the current format.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I've been in several of these races where the course is too crowded and you can't avoid drafting. The most recent example I saw was the last 15 miles of Oceanside 70.3 last month. I'm a MOP guy and we had a ton of people confined to one lane on that stretch. There was literally no way to get the separation required by the rules unless you stopped and waited an hour for the pack to thin out.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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I'll go enforcement over predicting that WTC suddenly only puts 1800 people on a course.

ETA: I'm actually in favor of making it draft legal...But that's far too ratical for AG'ers to wrap their head around of losing their sacred "individual" effort.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 3, 18 8:13
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'll go enforcement over predicting that WTC suddenly only puts 1800 people on a course.

ETA: I'm actually in favor of making it draft legal...But that's far too ratical for AG'ers to wrap their head around of losing their sacred "individual" effort.

You can't 'go with enforcement'. The point of this thread is to draw attention to an unarguable reality that with too many people on an ironman course drafting is unavoidable.

You can't create a rule that is for an unavoidable infringement.

I think you edited this just as I am replying. I agree, some kind of draft legality, or running it as a spread out time trial from start to finish, seem to be the options to me (assuming no reduction in numbers.)
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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But what I'm saying is you are arguing mathematics that say it's unavoidable. What I'm saying is, ok fine. But let's not worry if guys are 8.6m behind instead of 10m. Let's bust the hell out of "draft packs". So whether it's mathematical impossible not to draft, what I"m suggesting is, let's fix the very "ugly" draft packs. And yes I think enforcement will do a hell of a strong job if they were able to do that. Worrying about 1.5 feet difference if people are in a "line", eh I'm ok with that. Letting groups of 40-60 people riding as if it's a charity ride and oh then causing serious injuries...that's a HUGE issue that I think can be corrected, whether the math says so or not. And no I'm not suggesting less athletes on the course. I'm suggesting enforcing it so that big packs simply can't form.

eta: IM TX was same course in 2017 and 2018 right? Nothing changed except the number of motos allowed on the course right? Sounds like law enforcement forced WTC to pull motos for majority of AG race, which wasn't the case in 2017. I cant remember seeing any social media blasts or uproar until this year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 3, 18 8:42
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Agree!



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Re: drafting - the objective reality [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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CPT Chaos wrote:
Sure, in the first 10k (or maybe a bit longer at a race like Kona, things are super busy and free air is hard to find), but that is just the beginning of a 180km (hopefully) ride. I would give 10km out of 180km on any day if it meant that the 170km was truly fair.

also, at Kona the side wind is significant enough in many places to mitigate draft effects. Moreover, there ARE marshals on course, and the aforementioned wind makes it difficult to hear them coming. The average person racing Kona gets no gifts from that bike course; if they somehow got 1 minute benefit I'd be surprised, and that would have to come from the in town section (i.e., the first 10k). Rest assured those who really try to suck wheels there will eventually find time in one of the penalty tents. Borderline stuff? Hard to say.

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Re: drafting - the objective reality [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:

The math says it isn't possible for everyone to avoid drafting though. put that many people on the course in that timeframe and there has to be drafting, at least early in the race.

But, because the draft packs do form it creates space for some people to ride cleanly. So, you're kind of correct, in that it is possible for individuals to not draft, and it is an individual choice to draft at races like that, but at the same time it is impossible for there to be zero drafting at the race.

It's funny, most of the people (not you) claiming that there are too many people on the course are also saying that the wetsuit legal temperature shouldn't be lowered because it will "discourage participation". Pick one.

Strava
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [CPT Chaos] [ In reply to ]
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I've been caught in drafting packs in Kona and few other races. Once a large forms it is very hard to get out of it. I've tried to go off the front and that doesn't last long, you can't beat a pack of 20 riders who want to ride your wheel. The other option is to slow down and drop out the back, this works until the next pack comes by then you get sucked into the chase group and you have to go even slower again to let them go by. So yes, you avoid drafting by going slow or stopping but it is race.

The race officials don't seems to know what to do with a large packs. I've seen them drive right by a group of 30. In these situations everyone is drafting and everyone is blocking, most could claim that were attempting to pass someone. The motorcycle might say break up the pack but they don't hand out cards. They could record all 20 people in the pack. The officials tend to card the one guy who is on the wheel of one other bike because its cleaner and easier.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [Bifff] [ In reply to ]
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Bifff wrote:
I've been caught in drafting packs in Kona and few other races. Once a large forms it is very hard to get out of it. I've tried to go off the front and that doesn't last long, you can't beat a pack of 20 riders who want to ride your wheel. The other option is to slow down and drop out the back, this works until the next pack comes by then you get sucked into the chase group and you have to go even slower again to let them go by. So yes, you avoid drafting by going slow or stopping but it is race.

The race officials don't seems to know what to do with a large packs. I've seen them drive right by a group of 30. In these situations everyone is drafting and everyone is blocking, most could claim that were attempting to pass someone. The motorcycle might say break up the pack but they don't hand out cards. They could record all 20 people in the pack. The officials tend to card the one guy who is on the wheel of one other bike because its cleaner and easier.

So according to you and others here, we should see lots and lots of bike splits that are *slower* than to be expected, because all these non-cheaters are caught in packs that slow them down.

Does that comport with the reality of the splits we just saw at IMTX?

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Re: drafting - the objective reality [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't race IMTX, but saw photos, looks like most people were drafting.
I wont even ride a wheel on a training ride with friends, but drafting is becoming harder to avoid. Kinda like how we all drive our cars 10-15MPH over the speed limit. And IMTX did have bike leg on a freeway.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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ironman 70.3 texas was quite difficult to not draft. i made every effort to follow the rules but on occasion it was unavoidable with the amount of bikes on the out and back.

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Re: drafting - the objective reality [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'll go enforcement over predicting that WTC suddenly only puts 1800 people on a course.

ETA: I'm actually in favor of making it draft legal...But that's far too ratical for AG'ers to wrap their head around of losing their sacred "individual" effort.

It's more than just about the individual effort.

Make it draft legal, and weak swimmers and mediocre bikers will get dragged up to the front and it'll be a mass start running event.

Hey if you want that, great! There are races where you can have a pure running event, where the pure Runners win. Those are called MARATHONS.

I do TRIATHLONS because it gives people out who may not be a great runner, but are strong bikers or strong swimmers at least a chance to win.

But yeah, we should make a sport that's about three disciplines all about One discipline: running.

Running isn't your favorite or best leg by any chance is it?
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:


The math says it isn't possible for everyone to avoid drafting though. put that many people on the course in that timeframe and there has to be drafting, at least early in the race.

But, because the draft packs do form it creates space for some people to ride cleanly. So, you're kind of correct, in that it is possible for individuals to not draft, and it is an individual choice to draft at races like that, but at the same time it is impossible for there to be zero drafting at the race.


It's funny, most of the people (not you) claiming that there are too many people on the course are also saying that the wetsuit legal temperature shouldn't be lowered because it will "discourage participation". Pick one.

Wouldn't it make sense that the same thing would happen, just at different parts of the race? If the swimmers are slowed due to no wetsuit they'd still get out of the water at a similar time. The better swimmers are beating these people anyway, wetsuit or not, so they'll continue to come out of the water sooner.

The only way your theory works is if it really does discourage participation and to a large degree.
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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I have no favorite sport. I’m sugesting DL because I don’t think we can currently run non-draft IM events fairly anymore for certain courses.

I’m in favor of taking out rules that can’t be correctly officiated, if that means you strong wimmer or strong biker suffers, sorry. So I’m not for anyone but actually creating environment for fairest conditions.

ETA: And again yes I realize DL will never come to IM and pretty much to any AG racing. What I was more suggesting it is, if we can't fairly officiate under the current rules, we need to make changes. The *easiest* change likely is going to DL as that then removes pretty much all "rules". But yes I know it wont go to that. Nor do I see any modifications in current rules setup for non-draft racing. So essentially it goes back to what I suggested.....ENFORCEMENT is key.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: May 4, 18 10:50
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Re: drafting - the objective reality [damon.lebeouf] [ In reply to ]
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damon.lebeouf wrote:
ironman 70.3 texas was quite difficult to not draft. i made every effort to follow the rules but on occasion it was unavoidable with the amount of bikes on the out and back.

Describe for us some of those occasions. Perhaps we can figure out how you could have avoided drafting.

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