I would say you probably have serious issues with anything under 60. The only way I can post 50s is to concentrate on pedalling straight up and down. An average rider without pedalling form training should be in the mid 60s to mid 70s. With training you should be able to easily get your numbers into the mid 80s on all but the hardest efforts.

Geez, you're gonna make the guy feel bad. I note that your profile states an Oly distance PR of 2:01.

It takes me, ummm, a bit longer than that, so I'll give John some numbers that might make him feel better. I've only had CT 2 months. Right now, my spinscan starts out in the mid to high 60's and drops to the mid to high 50's with a little fatigue. My spinscan numbers actually improve when the pedalling is "hard", i.e., higher resistance and lower cadence.

2:01+

agree with mr. mike. I'm new to ct and my numbers start in the 60's and top out in the 70s.

Don't take me wrong. I didn't say that he was screwed up. But if his numbers are in the 50s his pedalling form has a ton of room to improve. Have you played with your pedalling stroke using any of the time-worn ideas like "scraping the mud off your cleats?" If so, you'll see the differences you can generate. When you see 80s pop up, you'll know that you're getting in the ball park. The fact that I have 40k'd under 1 hr and gone 2:01 for Oly hasn't got a lot to do with my advice to him. My wife, who is decidely slower than 2:01, has gone from those same 50s to where now she's in the upper 70s/lower 80s, but is still far off from pacing with me on the bike. She's a whole lot more efficient and better on and off the bike than she used to be, though!

Its also natural for your numbers to be better with some resistance. Its hard to keep even pressure on the pedals when there isn't anything to push against. But if you go really hard you'll probably see your numbers drop some too.

While concentrateing at 150 to 200 watt, my spinscan numbers are consistantly in the mid 70's. In general after a longer trainer session my numbers go up even further. Doing higher wattages 300+ the SS# drops thru the floor to the lower 60's. It takes time and expirience to establish a smooth pedal stroke. I have been on the computrainer for a year and a half. Keep working at it.

I both agree and disagree with TriBriGuy. I think numbers in the 50s shows much room for work. Getting into the 60s should come quickly with some early modification on your pedal stroke. I have been able to get myself consistenly to mid to high 60s in my first year and often low-mid 70s in my second year on the CT. However, I've found getting into the 80s a real challenge. I can do it but it is usually for only a few minutes. I believe I may be able to get there with some specific hip flexor strengthening and stretching and with continued focus on spinscan, but it is DEFINITELY not easy right now.

BTW, I am no TriBriGuy on the bike, but I can post a 2:08 OLY with a 36kph bike split. Maybe if I get to the 80s I will get closer to a 40kph. Hmmmmmmmm 40kph.

Anyway, good luck and keep plugging away.

One other thought. I have a coach who thinks that although spinscan is important, he also promotes trying to get your average torque angle equal between sides and trying to work towards a 90 ATA. I honestly can't remember his logic, but he's an exercise physiologist and my coach, so I work on it. Actually, I consistently achieve it and can do so for prolonged periods. Now for an 80 on the spinscan.

Cheers,

Richard

Ok then I am new to using my Computrainer Spinscan feature. I'd like some feedback on it. I get a spinscan in the mid 50's the ata's are both around 60 and the balance is about 50/50 Since based on the replys here so far this is below terrible, what do I need to fix to get this to improve. My bike splits in races are like 1:08 for olympic and 6:05 for Ironman Not great I know, one of the main reasons I am using the computrainer to improve things.

Thanks for any and all advice



Mike

Misery loves company, right? My spinscan is in the 50's, too. I can get it to the 60's at higher watts (like someone else mentioned), but I could not maintain that wattage for an entire race.

I have tried the "scraping mud off your shoes" analogy, and I just don't seem to be able to get it to improve much. (I've only managed to go from the low 50's to the mid 50's). Are there other things that could prevent you from being able to get this right, like cleat position or something? Or other analogies that might work better for me? Help!



Carol

I am wondering if there is something wrong with your setup. The ATA should be 90 or higher. An ATA of 90 would mean that your average torque is occurring at 3 o'clock on the downstroke (which is suppose to be good). An ata of 60 would mean you are getting your average torque at 2 o'clock (with top dead center being 12 o'clock). That is way too early in the pedal stroke. If anything your ata would occur later in the downstroke with an ata of >90°. This usually happens because we start out as "pushers" and have to learn to pull through the bottom with our hamstrings and pull up with our hip flexors. You may want to check the placement of the cadence sensor. For the CT to calculate ATA correctly your crank arm must pass the cadence sensor when it is paralell to the floor. If your setup looks right, give CT a call and ask them about this issue.

Some thoughts on improving pedal stroke:

Here is a drill set I have found useful. Make sure to use a resistance/wattage that you would normally use to create a low endurance/easy ride. The reason for this is that you will be focusing on certain muscles during the drill and if you have too high a resistance these will fatigue too quickly resulting in a lack of "learning". This drill is to focus on technique. You will still get some good base endurance training, but focus on the "learning".

Do this drill in the stand alone mode. Only turn on your spinscan after to check the effect.

1) start by picturing the pedal stroke like a box (within a clock). The top of the box is from 10 to 2 o'clock; the next segment is 2 to 4, the bottom is 5 - 7, and the last is 8-10 o'clock (ok so the box ain't perfect but you get the idea, I hope)

2) practice emphasising one segment of the box on your right or left leg while on a fairly low resistance and still pedal with both feet in the clips - no one legged stuff yet.

2) work pushing across the top of the box (11 o'clock to 1 o'clock) with your quads on one side (do this for some set time 30 sec or 1 min)

3) next work pushing the down stroke concentrating on using your gluts (ass) for another 30 sec to 1 minute

4) now work pulling across the bottom (similar to scraping gum off the shoe)

5) lastly work pulling up with your hip flexors for one minute

6) finally do 1 minute combining them all on the same leg. Keep pedalling with the opposite leg, just focus on the leg you are training.

7) then switch to the other leg and repeat

After you have worked both legs individually, do 2 to 5' of putting it altogether with both legs. For me it feels like I have learned to pedal through the whole stroke OR that my pedal stroke feels like a smaller, tighter circle.

Try resting for 3-5 minutes and then restart trying to put it all together again with both legs and check your spinscan. It may take several sessions but you may find it a lot easier to achieve higher spinscans, at least for short periods. If you do, then keep working this drill frequently and build your endurance. You will probably be able to hold your new higher spinscans for longer as time goes by. Even when not doing this drill try to achieve the feeling of a "tighter" pedalling technique.

Hope this helps.

Richard

So placement of the sensor can effect the results? Mine is on the seat tube, that is about the only place to put it on my frame, the stays are too close to the tire to allow the strap. I'll have to see what I can do to move it somehow.

Thanks for the tips! I will try these drills tonight.

I would say from my completely uniformed perspective that 45-50 shows that the stroke is pretty inefficient.

On the other hand, I was at my coach's using his CT this weekend doing a hill course. I was able to hit as high as 92, and maintain low 80s. Yet by every other measure-wattage & speed, I really stink. Ergo, high spinscan numbers do not necessarily correlate with great cycling.

I've found I get high SpinScan numbers when I don't hear the whir whir whir whir sound as I pedal, I hear a steady whir. I can maintain a constant ATA between 90° and 95° with SpinScan numbers in the high 80s simply by listening to the sound my chain and trainer are making.

For me I've found the CT gives me better SpinScan numbers if I ride toes down and toes shoved into the toe box of my shoes. Of course riding around 150 miles a week on my fixed gear also does wonders for those SpinScan numbers. After a couple of long weekend rides on the fixed gear the numbers are really nice on Tuesday but deteriorate some by Thursday.

 
I think the best cue for fixing your pedal stroke and SS #'s is to listen for that whir whir whir whir. Try to ride so that you don't hear that sound (And no, that doesn't mean you can stop :>)
The less you hear whir whir whir whir and the more you just hear one long whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........the better you are pedalng and the better your SS numbers will be. Another hint is that position changes will affect how well you can pedal. For me, I cannot score SS numbers as high when i'm sitting up with hands on the tops. The lower I go, the higher SS numbers I score, especially on the drops. I have to be fully adapted to my tri position before I can post high SS #'s.
Another mental cue to try is to push the pedal straight forward from 9 to 3 and to pull it straight back from 3 to 9. There are lots of these cues. One is bound to help you mentally cause your muscles to fire correctly.

One last thing, my 2:01 Oly was due more to my fast running than to the bike. The bike split on that one was 1:0016. The run split was 34:23!

I was actually going to start a post on this topic. I just got a computrainer last week and was going to ask what spin scan numbers are decenent. (Mine are about mid 60's to low 70's) Also for the ATA the optimal is 90 and also as close together possible. Mine seem to be in the high 90's to low 100's but they are typically about 5 or 10 degrees apart. Is that a concern? I also have power cranks, how does that affect the numbers? I have no bike experience( I just learned to ride a bike about a year ago but do training rides at about 20-24mph now). Any help would be greatly appreciated,
mike

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[/code][/reply]What is this ata that you guys refer to? I'll probably figure it out once I've posted, but it's not a term that I'm familiar with.
I, too, have horrible spinscan numbers, in the 50's. I've got a pretty decent leg length difference that I've tried to compensate for in different ways over the years. Now I'm working with High Sierra cycles to try a special chainring, adjustable crank, and dropped pedal to increase my efficiency. If I'm successful I'll be posting with my progress.
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After being on my CT since December I've discovered a few things:

1. My right leg is way more efficient than my left (left is my dominant leg). At the top of my stroke on the left side I've got some trouble I've discovered that this is due to having much tighter hammies in the left leg so I'm stretching on the left side a lot more now trying to balance this out.

2. I do 2 basic rides right now: AT at lower resistance and a notch up in HR at more resistance....all RPM between 90 and 95. My scan number is consistently better at the higher resistance and more consistent as well (until fatigue sets in). At higher resistance I tend to get between 70 and 80 numbers. At lower resistance it's in mid 60s to lower 70s (and fluctuates more).

3. All I need to do to increase the number (when spinning at 90-95) is to mash less (heavy quad use) and engage the hammies getting more 'lift' in my pedal stroke. It works every time.

4. The scan number is one important factor, however the shape of the pedal stroke is also something to consider as well. Many times I'll be at a high overall number but the stroke looks like hell. I try to balance both out.

5. Riding on a CT and optimizing spin is a mental challenge for sure.

The ideal ATA is 90° or 9 o'clock (when the cadence sensor is located horizontal to the floor). An ATA less than 90° means you are developing most of your torque too soon in your pedal stroke. An ATA greater than 90° means you are developing most of your torque too late in your pedal stroke. You want to be within 5°+/- of 90°.

When I was competing in the Cutting Horse world I had one of my great broodmares roll on my leg, breaking my tibula and fibula, while she had colic. Needless to say my left lower leg is now shorter then my right lower leg by 3/8". I find if I sit off the saddle to my left I can balance my left/right numbers.

I was fit today by someone using CT with spin-scan. I found I had higher spin-scan numbers when under higher loads (up to a point). I ended up being steady with 248 watts at a HR of 150, spin scans in the 80's, in the aero position. This was the first ride I've had Without Power Cranks in almost two months. I will have to say, as long as I was thinking "Power Cranks" my spin scan numbers and graphs were better. I haven't been riding in the aero position much at all, and I have been riding at lower cadences than on the CT this afternoon, so I don't know if I will do better with some practice in the aero position...I would hope so.

I occurs to me, though, that the spin scan is still looking at the average pressure changes per pedal stroke...it can't REALLY tell which leg is pushing harder than the other...it CAN tell that there is more power as the left leg is descending, but it can't tell you if that is because the left leg is pushing harder or if the right leg is lifting better. e.g., I could make it appear that my right leg was pushing more than the left by just pulling up more effectively with my left, and vice versa.

Interesting tool. It was fun, and enlightening. I can see how you guys that have a CT like them.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)