I’d be perfectly fine if USAT ceased to exist tomorrow.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

#2. That will kill 99% of smaller races. Towns will not approve the closer of roads.

Not stopping at red lights is resolved by the race hiring police to man the intersection. That's common. Closing roads is not....

1) I couldn’t care any less.
2) Would probably kill the sport.

Oh horseshit... we all know your number 1 was ban all shoes with carbon and designed after 1985.

I'm with you. Their predecessor Trifed, ruined triathlons in our area, at the sport's peak. And it's never recovered.

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Athlinks / Strava

I agree that a lot of places won’t approve closure of roads. However I’m not sure it would necessarily kill a lot of the races. When I was living and racing in Montana the largest tri in the state was never USAT and neither were two other races which were in the top 5 participant wise

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Matt

Large races can afford to buy the roads being closed. Small races can’t. Agree it’s not a usat issue. We’re those races on closed courses?

Not closed courses. I was just trying to say that if USAT required races to have a closed bike course to have a ‘USAT certified’ race then a lot of races wouldn’t bother with being USAT races so they could just keep doing what they are doing. They wouldn’t be killed, they would just be independent tris

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Matt

yes i err on that side too as to the amature athlete they are nothing but an insurance sales company. A race can easily get cheaper insurance from other companies. (who is cal tri using?) . So they need a better selling point

Agree 100%.

Asking usat (and race directors) to have closed courses is a non-starter.

there is some middle ground somewhere. As I mentioned that race in florida, if USAT had their insurance underwriter see that in person im sure they would drop them.

Rules need to be written for course design/planning. When I sign up for a race, I would like to know the conditions. many people were cutting course due to poor marking and confusion with cars flying through (they thought they were off course).

can you expand on your statement, and tell us now trifed ruined triathlons in your area? what it did that resulted in damage to triathlons in your area?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Our areas first triathlon was in 1983, it cost $8 to enter, drew about 100 people, and was a smash hit. By 1984 we had 2 olympic and 2 sprint triathlons, that were drawing 200 or so folks. By 1985 the local university, the swim club, the local YMCA's, and the bikes stores all wanted to get in on the action. Cost was usually around $15-$20 to enter. They drew big crowds. In the summer months there were literally more triathlons, than 5K or 10k road races. They were held at the university pool, Y pool, Swim club pool, and our two local reservoir lakes. I can't remember if it was 86 or 87 when Trifed hit our city. They started with our biggest local race, brought something called the Bud Lite series with them, said we had to join their organization to race, charged a yearly fee (or one time race fee just like today) and immediately doubled race entry fees. If that wasn't bad enough, they also brought along a bunch of new rules, even bike inspections. THE WORST being anti drafting rules. Up to this point, all the locals were having a blast, drafting our asses off, and racing our bikes like bikes are supposed to be raced. Suddenly we couldn't do that, or get a penalty. Are you fucking kidding me? That was the overwhelming reaction. After several "Trifed" races, attendance dropped dramatically. Triathlon as we had known it since 1983, the wild fun low cost, low keyed all out racing was over. Our signature on a race entry waiver was no longer good enough. We were "required" to buy insurance we didn't want, pay insane entries fees, and follow rules that ruined the racing we loved. I personally have no idea what went on behind the scenes, or how or why the different races were pressured to become "Trifed" races, but by 88, most of the smaller races had folded, and the bigger races were dying, lucky to draw 50 people. 1989 was the last year our biggest local triathlon was held. In desperation, they even tried to draw folks, by making it the "State Championship", but that didn't help. I still have a race singlet from that race. That was the end. Triathlons were dead and gone here. Until 2002, when a new generation brought it back, now with USAT. It's still struggling to this day. At the local peak in the modern era, we were back to 2 olympics and 1 sprint, and 50-75 folks was considered a good crowd. But we've lost the sprint, so we are down to 2 local triathlons. The last one I did, only drew 18 people in the olympic race. The tri scene here today is a tiny pitiful shadow of what it was in the 1983-1986 heyday. My personal perspective, is that I hope the covid fitness boom is real, and I hope some new groups start putting on some new low key, independant, non USAT events, and get back to the root of our sport, with some fun wild racing. And maybe instead of trying to milk us for profit with some insurance scam, how about putting our entry fees into a prize pool like they used to?

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Athlinks / Strava

If you want drafting. You also need rubbin like in NASCAR. Otherwise drafting is just cheating and letting a stronger rider drag you around the course.

And we know bike riders can’t handle contact so we need the no drafting rules.

okay. thanks. but a few points of clarification.

the bud light triathlon series was not brought to you by trifed, but by CAT Sports, a private race organization that produced a national series of races. the race that came to your town was 1 race a year (most likely), and if that race wiped out the tri scene in your area i question how robust that scene really was.

in 1991 (or thereabouts) we had a terrific, national crisis in commercial liability insurance. you couldn't get it. the only place a lot of race organizers could get insurance at all was by sanctioning with trifed (which was by this time transitioning to USA Triathlon).

your local RDs could always have chosen not to sanction. no problem. in some parts of the country, notably the pacific northwest, that area was for decades notoriously unsanctioned. when i was in san diego county, the largest race org, koz enterprizes, didn't sanction. it's a free country. USAT was there for you if you wanted/needed it, but there was no law requiring sanctioning.

i just don't see how the NGB is the devil that ruined triathlon. yes, i have my problems with it from time to time (as you knew about a month ago if you're in my email list). but it's government. i have problems with government. i also rely on it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

update on koz, the series sold to new owner about 4 years ago, where they start to usat sanction the events, probably because it made it cookie cutter easy for the new race director which had no tri back ground, just bike events. price for international distance is now at $200

tri club san diego does put on its on races with out usat sanctioning, and it was free for members and $20 for non members.

I've never been involved in organization, I'm just a competitor. So I have very little knowledge of that stuff. Bud Bud Lite and Trifed showed up at the same time, at the same race, but I wouldn't have a clue about any connections. It was our biggest local event, also the one the other's tried to follow.

I'll never really know the full reasons why tri died here. But it was thriving when Trifed showed up. I don't think the timing was a coincidence. I was in the middle of it all, and grumbled with my friends at the raised prices and new rules. I have no idea what would have happened, if they would have stayed away. But it was quite common in my circles, to say screw the triathlons, and start looking for alternatives. It just wasn't what it used to be. Trail running and ultras were just starting to get noticed, and that sucked some away. I personally dumped swimming and cycling, to concentrate on marathoning in the 90's.

I have always wondered why the smaller events didn't chose not to sanction, and just stay the way they were. That's why I have no idea what went on behind the scenes. I just don't know. It's also something I still see today. Why do the small tris, that barely draw 50 people, still think they need USAT? There's been a growing trend lately, for the local tri club, to hold "mock tris" for training. The same venues they hold the summer races. Where they have a sign up waiver, usually something like $25, everyone pulls a orange float buoy, they have a sag wagon, and put out water on the run course. Everyone comes out and runs through the course, has a good time and then drink and eat and talk about the next IM they are going to do. I'm like man, if you are going to go through all that, why not just advertise it as a race, and have a race!

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Athlinks / Strava

It's only cheating if it's not in the rules. ITU athletes aren't cheating.

As for course certification, I would prefer the distances to be as close as possible. However it's not as easy in triathlon as it is in running only races and this is another obstacle which may lead to less races taking place.

That horse has been kicked, shot, and dragged to death here. We drafted in the early days, and didn't know any different. A good group of us were also cat riders, so when tri hit the scene, it was like any other bike race with bookends. A poor swimmer (like me) could use the bike to catch up, and then hang on for the run. A good swimmer could get caught, and the hot shot runners usually sucked at swimming and bike, so we got payback on the guys who kicked our asses at the road races. Those who could draft did, those who couldn't didn't, we all had a blast, and no one really cared. We thought the TT format was just for IM. So when it suddenly came to town with sanctioned short course races, we were not happy.

But, the drafting thing has flown years ago. With the evolution of the tri bike, there was no turning back by the 90's. I wouldn't even try drafting on my tri bike. I'm too old, and don't mend so well anymore.

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Athlinks / Strava

Your right. If the rules allow it’s not cheating. Just seems really wrong and produces results that don’t make sense based on someones true ability to s/b/r.

there are a few reasons, some of which are relevant today, but not back then. for example, up until about 2005 or so, nobody cared about USAT nationals, or their USAT ranking. now they do. so, that's one reason over the last 15 or so years. beyond that, there are 2 more.

1. USAT's insurance works. it's all well and good to complain on the consumer side, but when somebody gets hurt at your race, you need to know you're taken care of.

2. it's a way to pass on a cost to the consumer. if you need to buy insurance, it'll cost $X. now, $X is probably only $4 a head, but, that means you need to raise your entry fee or eat the cost. with USAT, you don't have to buy insurance. the consumer buys it. most competitors aren't smart enough to realize that if you go from $75 to $80 in your entry fee, but drop USAT sanctioning, that you actually saved them money (except for the annual license holders).

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Something I’ve always wondered. When tri started, we signed a liability waiver on the entry form, just like all the running races. That was good enough. The running races are still doing that. At some point, that wasn’t good enough for tris anymore. What was the tipping point? Is it simply because of the increased risk of swimming and cycling?

And on the flip side, how come no one ever tried this with running? Or have they? Could one imagine the outcry, if suddenly we all had to join USAR to enter a local 5k?

I honestly don’t understand the difference. I’ve been primarily a runner, doing marathons, and some trail and ultras, and only got back into triathlons in the last 4 years (really only 3 years if you count covid)

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Athlinks / Strava

if you get badly hurt, or you die, you or your heirs will sue. doesn't matter if you signed a waiver. there will be a lawsuit. so you have to defend. that costs. beyond that, every host city, every govt agency, and likely your sponsors, will require that they be additional insured on your policy, which you just have, and nowadays it's often not the base $1 million face value, but $5 million.

i did my first triathlon in the 1970s. i raced kona in 1981. i've been around the block on this. the Bud Light series began in 1982 i believe, and i raced my first series race in 1982. trifed got going in around 1985.

yes, the sport took off like a rocket, and then a lot of races died off. that happened starting in 1989, and the die off continued for about a decade. then the sport took off like a rocket again, and grew way, way bigger than its earlier peak in 1988. apparently your area missed that second wave. anyway, we hit the peak around 2011, and then it's been slowly sliding back down. as things do. cyclicly. then around 2018 things leveled off and started to grow again. we'll see how it all shakes out. but i suspect we had our decade of swoon as we did before.

i put on my first race in 1981, after i did the IM in kona. i've put on races, off and on, since then. i never found USAT to be a burden. you either sanction or you don't. either is okay. i don't think USAT was ever a reason for the decline of the sport in an area. ironman? if you said they are the reason, then there's some justification for that, altho i've also seen IM be the reason for the growth of the sport in an area.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I've been doing tris since the mid eighties. I raced at a fairly high level, did lots of nationals and worlds. It was a totally great time-like minded friends, great race directors, challenging courses. Then I started to feel like USAT began a money grab. Each year a new manditory uniform, large increase in entry price. We were able to travel to races around the world using a USAT "travel desk"It was very reasonable, enjoyable and healthy. I just don't see that anymore.
Rankings were well, rankings! #1 and down-not honorable mentions. Qualifiers and Nationals were sought after slots-I'm not sure of that nowadays. Everything seems more diluted, expensive,
Maybe I'm just getting old-
JYT