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Re: cadence [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Keep in mind that the Power-Velocity curves I posted earlier can be obtained for:
  • 1 minute sprint in which one utilizes all fiber types, slow-twitch type I, fast-twitch type IIa (aka intermediate), and fast-twitch type IIx;
  • or a 30 minute race, in which ono ae utilizes fiber types, slow-twitch type I, and fast-twitch type IIa (aka intermediate);
  • or a 5 hour race, in which one presumably utilizes, slow-twitch type I, and to a much lesser extent type IIa;
  • or a 9 hour race, in which I guess only slow-twitch type I fibers are utilized.

All fiber types (i.e., I, IIa, IIx) would be used in the latter two activities (although anyone who competes in 5+ h races would be rather unlikely to have a significant number of type IIx fibers).
But don't fibers IIx get fatigued, therefore you are not able to utilize them after a while?

Giovanni Ciriani
http://www.GlobusSHT.com
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Re: cadence [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Largely tangential? LOL.

The area of interest here is the area where the thigh is decelerating (after 9 o'clock on this diagram) and expecially the area where it is decelerating the most rapidly (where the forces are the greatest - between 7 and 8 o'clock). In this area of most interest the angles from tangential vary from about 45º to about 80º by my eye. The energy transferred to drive the bicycle would be equal to the load times the cosine of the angle. Not very efficient in my opinion. And, of course, some of that is being diverted to push the trailing leg over the top.

You also keep "mixing" the mechanical forces with the muscular forces when you are discussing "efficiency"...

To be honest, I have no expectation of you ever understanding (or admitting that you understand) how this system all actually works, for obvious reasons...I just hope that others reading this will come to an understanding about the validity of your assertions.

I'm done for now since I think I've made my point.
I don't keep mixing anything. All this stuff is mixed up for us.

Anyhow, if your point all along has been you don't expect me to ever be able to understand how the system actually works I take from this assertion that you do know how the system actually works. If so, why haven't you come here and given everyone an accounting of where the losses occur between the muscles and the wheel. Until you are able to do that I don't think you have made your point. :-)

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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If so, why haven't you come here and given everyone an accounting of where the losses occur between the muscles and the wheel. Until you are able to do that I don't think you have made your point. :-)

I showed you that there are no magical losses. So nobody can explain where these non existing losses come from.
But I think, I also said earlier, that there is of course some energy lost, when you bend soft material. And when you pedal with higher cadence you bend it more often and faster and lose more energy.
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, are you still looking for someone to... ahh, never mind. ;-)
A couple of things, though. I did some thinking about the kinetic energy of the thighs using some generous and round figures, and estimated that at 84 bpm cadence (the rate suggested by slowman) the power input represented by the maximum kinetic energy of the thighs is in the order of 6-7W. I used some simplifying assumptions, of course. If this is correct (and I am not infallible; I'd appreciate seeing if that's in the ballpark of what others get as well), it doesn't amount to much of the power loss. Eg, 200W output on the bike at 20-25% efficiency implies a possible 350W or so available biomechanically; and 6-7W is only 2% of that, not enough to account for some of the major losses you're looking for. This also means that slowing the cadence from 84 to 70 will only save about 3W in thigh-consumed power, which doesn't explain why Chrissie Wellington was so far ahead of the field. With higher muscle loading etc at that cadence, is the 3W gain worth it?
As a side note, based on my simplified model, the force of gravity was sufficient to slow the rise of the trailing leg before it got to the top, so no up-force on the pedal was required for this. (In other words, lack of upforce between 3:00 and 12:00 is no indicator of inefficiency.)
As for your question about losses, my suspicion is threefold. First, the muscles are to some degree working against each other for stability reasons (eg medial vs lateral). The second is that muscular effort is required to transfer energy without a gain in propulsive power; for instance, the ankle joint resists flexure by means of various muscles, when they are not adding [significant?] driving force but merely transmitting it. Third, the highest mechanical efficiency of the leg doesn't line up with the most efficient direction of force application at the axle.
Regarding the 'Largely tangential? LOL' comments: inefficiency is in the eye of the beholder. At rest, the mass of the leg will produce a downward force on the pedal, so you need to take that into account. Since there is a bunch of acceleration going on (of calf and thigh), converting kinetic energy from one direction to another, one would expect a significant normal (radial) force. (If you run a marble around a walled track quickly, the forces will be nearly radial. This does not indicate inefficiency, but conversion of the kinetic energy fron one direction to another, nearly losslessly, since the force and the motion are nearly perpendicular.) So you need to be clear about efficiency, and there is a difference between the strict mechanics of what is going on and the biologico-musculo-skeletal implications. It can be really confusing if you do not clarify terms and think through the implications with clear explanations. Otherwise it is nearly impossible even to interact effectively with your theories.
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, are you still looking for someone to... ahh, never mind. ;-)
A couple of things, though. I did some thinking about the kinetic energy of the thighs using some generous and round figures, and estimated that at 84 bpm cadence (the rate suggested by slowman) the power input represented by the maximum kinetic energy of the thighs is in the order of 6-7W. I used some simplifying assumptions, of course. If this is correct (and I am not infallible; I'd appreciate seeing if that's in the ballpark of what others get as well), it doesn't amount to much of the power loss. Eg, 200W output on the bike at 20-25% efficiency implies a possible 350W or so available biomechanically; and 6-7W is only 2% of that, not enough to account for some of the major losses you're looking for. This also means that slowing the cadence from 84 to 70 will only save about 3W in thigh-consumed power, which doesn't explain why Chrissie Wellington was so far ahead of the field. With higher muscle loading etc at that cadence, is the 3W gain worth it?
As a side note, based on my simplified model, the force of gravity was sufficient to slow the rise of the trailing leg before it got to the top, so no up-force on the pedal was required for this. (In other words, lack of upforce between 3:00 and 12:00 is no indicator of inefficiency.)
As for your question about losses, my suspicion is threefold. First, the muscles are to some degree working against each other for stability reasons (eg medial vs lateral). The second is that muscular effort is required to transfer energy without a gain in propulsive power; for instance, the ankle joint resists flexure by means of various muscles, when they are not adding [significant?] driving force but merely transmitting it. Third, the highest mechanical efficiency of the leg doesn't line up with the most efficient direction of force application at the axle.
Regarding the 'Largely tangential? LOL' comments: inefficiency is in the eye of the beholder. At rest, the mass of the leg will produce a downward force on the pedal, so you need to take that into account. Since there is a bunch of acceleration going on (of calf and thigh), converting kinetic energy from one direction to another, one would expect a significant normal (radial) force. (If you run a marble around a walled track quickly, the forces will be nearly radial. This does not indicate inefficiency, but conversion of the kinetic energy fron one direction to another, nearly losslessly, since the force and the motion are nearly perpendicular.) So you need to be clear about efficiency, and there is a difference between the strict mechanics of what is going on and the biologico-musculo-skeletal implications. It can be really confusing if you do not clarify terms and think through the implications with clear explanations. Otherwise it is nearly impossible even to interact effectively with your theories.
Thanks for at least thinking about this issue seriously and doing some work. I would be interested in seeing what assumptions you made in doing your calculations. What mass for the thigh, where was the center of mass related to the roational axis, and the angle of motion? And, did you include both legs in your calculations. I would be interested in seeing your assumptions?

I don't remember exactly what I ended up with when I did this many moons ago. What I do remember is are the losses can be fairly small if the cadence is low but they increase with the cube of the cadence. That is why this is such a potentially big deal.

Anyhow, I have done some further study along this line and I found some interesting studies/papers that go to this point and it is much more complicated than even I thought. I will post some more on this later today when I have a little more time, if I can find the time.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, assumptions: thigh circumference of 60 cm, length of 50 cm, density 1.0, mass evenly distributed, rotating about endpoint with sinusoidal angular velocity, both legs, moving 35 cm (175mm x 2) at the knee. In general a thicker, longer, higher-moment-of-inertia profile, higher-peak-to-average-angular-velocity, longer sweep than the real thing, just to be conservative; the density is probably a little low, though (but there's plenty of conservatism to make up for that).
You are correct about cube of rate (as an approximation), as mentioned elsewhere in this thread (iirc), and the reason I gave nearly 50% away in going from 84 to 70 bpm. But again this is conservative because of energy conversion that is being ignored.
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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Pedaller
"the power input represented by the maximum kinetic energy of the thighs is in the order of 6-7W. "
Pedaller,
Please forgive me for asking, but I do not understand the physics behind your calculations. Kinetic energy is an energy and is measure in Joules. Power is energy used or produced by something in the unit of time: Joules/second = Watts. Are you saying that the kinetic energy associated with the movement of the thigh, since it's reversed at every revolution absorbs 6-7 Watts? If so, my back-of-the-envelope calculation yields the same order of magnitude. But this is an order of magnitude less than the power the thigh produces. So clearly these are not the main aspects of cycling biomechanicswe one has to look into to determine optimal cadence. IMHO one has to utilize the Power-Velocity curve.

Giovanni Ciriani
http://www.GlobusSHT.com
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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@pedaller

I am not sure, what you tried to calculate here.
Did you assume, you have to invest the full energy to accelate the legs (or parts of them?) from zero(?) to maximum speed in each and every pedal stroke?
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Re: cadence [LidlRacer] [ In reply to ]
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@pedaller

I am not sure, what you tried to calculate here.
Did you assume, you have to invest the full energy to accelate the legs (or parts of them?) from zero(?) to maximum speed in each and every pedal stroke?
Actually, you have to do it twice each and every pedal revolution.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Nice. But there is no use in calculating this energy because the energy is NOT lost.
It is simply transferrred between the parts of the legs, the cranks and the whole bike and rider.

Maybe you should have a look at this double pendulum:
http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/lagrange/doublependulum.html
It's parts continously change speed in an amazing way.
But it never stops because it does not lose energy.

Again: A hypothetical metal biker with fixed gear and without friction will roll forever!

Maybe I should better talk to a wall ...
Last edited by: LidlRacer: Oct 21, 09 13:15
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, assumptions: thigh circumference of 60 cm, length of 50 cm, density 1.0, mass evenly distributed, rotating about endpoint with sinusoidal angular velocity, both legs, moving 35 cm (175mm x 2) at the knee. In general a thicker, longer, higher-moment-of-inertia profile, higher-peak-to-average-angular-velocity, longer sweep than the real thing, just to be conservative; the density is probably a little low, though (but there's plenty of conservatism to make up for that).
You are correct about cube of rate (as an approximation), as mentioned elsewhere in this thread (iirc), and the reason I gave nearly 50% away in going from 84 to 70 bpm. But again this is conservative because of energy conversion that is being ignored.
Well, I checked your work and I calculate an energy loss at a cadence of 60 rpm of about 20 watts. At a cadence of 84 rpm the loss would have to be (1.4)^3 higher or about 55 watts.

Now I don't think it is unreasonable to think I might have made a calculation error but this is more in line with what I calculated before as the order of magnitude of this energy requirement. Could you redo your calculations?

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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"Well, I checked your work and I calculate an energy loss at a cadence of 60 rpm of about 20 watts. At a cadence of 84 rpm the loss would have to be (1.4)^3 higher or about 55 watts."

Frank, I should have thought more about the number before I posted it; it must take more than 3W to flap a leg around. I think I slipped a decimal place somewhere and maybe did worse than that (the price for working in my head... maybe I shouldn't do that!) So I think your number is somewhat right, but don't forget that this is only the basis for an outside bound and we have no agreement on the meaning of this number.

Now let's look at this more closely. At 84 bpm with our assumptions there is 22.63J max kinetic energy in one thigh. However, each thigh is started and stopped twice for each revolution of the pedals, and there are two thighs, so to be consistent in the assumption that this is lost energy, you would need to count them all. So for each revolution of the pedals, the left thigh requires 22.63J to make it go, 22.63J to make it stop, 22.63J to make it go, 22.63J to make it stop. Similarly for the right thigh. So each revolution must cost 8x22.63 = 181J. And since one revolution occurs in only 60/84 of a second, the equivalent lost power is 181*84/60 = 253W.

At a maximum muscle-level efficiency of 40%, this amounts to 634W required by the body. This would involve burning 545 calories per hour moving the legs only. At 100 bpm, that would be 919 calories per hour. (Note that although the model is conservative, we haven't factored in the calves yet, and the 40% is really high...) Clearly this cannot be, and the idea that the thighs are absorbing energy just because they are moving must be fallacious. There must be legitimate conversion of the motion of the thighs into work, otherwise cyclists would be even thinner than they already are.

So now for the hard part. Identify how much of this kinetic energy supplied to the thighs is converted into propulsive energy, and how much is not. It is a subtle business from the dynamics standpoint, as I hope I conveyed well in the previous post.
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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"Well, I checked your work and I calculate an energy loss at a cadence of 60 rpm of about 20 watts. At a cadence of 84 rpm the loss would have to be (1.4)^3 higher or about 55 watts."

Frank, I should have thought more about the number before I posted it; it must take more than 3W to flap a leg around. I think I slipped a decimal place somewhere and maybe did worse than that (the price for working in my head... maybe I shouldn't do that!) So I think your number is somewhat right, but don't forget that this is only the basis for an outside bound and we have no agreement on the meaning of this number.

Now let's look at this more closely. At 84 bpm with our assumptions there is 22.63J max kinetic energy in one thigh. However, each thigh is started and stopped twice for each revolution of the pedals, and there are two thighs, so to be consistent in the assumption that this is lost energy, you would need to count them all. So for each revolution of the pedals, the left thigh requires 22.63J to make it go, 22.63J to make it stop, 22.63J to make it go, 22.63J to make it stop. Similarly for the right thigh. So each revolution must cost 8x22.63 = 181J. And since one revolution occurs in only 60/84 of a second, the equivalent lost power is 181*84/60 = 253W.

At a maximum muscle-level efficiency of 40%, this amounts to 634W required by the body. This would involve burning 545 calories per hour moving the legs only. At 100 bpm, that would be 919 calories per hour. (Note that although the model is conservative, we haven't factored in the calves yet, and the 40% is really high...) Clearly this cannot be, and the idea that the thighs are absorbing energy just because they are moving must be fallacious. There must be legitimate conversion of the motion of the thighs into work, otherwise cyclists would be even thinner than they already are.

So now for the hard part. Identify how much of this kinetic energy supplied to the thighs is converted into propulsive energy, and how much is not. It is a subtle business from the dynamics standpoint, as I hope I conveyed well in the previous post.
22.63J is way more KE than I calculated being contained in each thigh. I used a thin rod estimate to calculate the moment of inertia for the 14kg thigh that is 0.5 meter long, giving me a moment of inertia of 1.18.

At 60 rpm the omega is 2*pi or 6.28 for the crank but since the circmference of the knee circle is 50/17.5 longer I determined the max omega for the knee was 17.5/50 of 6.28 or 2.2 radians per second.

This gives the max KE = to (0.5)*1.18 * (2.2)^2 or 2.85 joules. Multiply by 4 and we get 11.42 J/s or 11 watts. (I found I made a small error in my original calculation, forgetting to the 1/2 term in the KE calculation)

This would make the loss at 84 rpm equal to 30 watts, according to my calculations. Maybe the correct answer is somewhere between my number and yours.

I really don't see the calves as causing much energy cost. When pedaling the ankle usually doesn't flex much and when it does it is usually not loaded very much. Isometric contractions are much more economical than contractions that do actual work. Of course, there is a cost but the muscle mass is much smaller than the thighs/glutes and the movement is much smaller. Further, the motion of the lower leg and foot is much more circular so the KE doesn't change as much as the thigh resulting in much less loss. While one can waste a lot of time doing the calculations if one wants I think the cost is so small that it can be ignored compared to the thighs.

And, while I guess that some of this potential energy loss could be recovered in the loaded bicycle I simply don't understand how it would work. We know it cannot be recovered in the unloaded bicycle. When and how does it begin to occur. 1 watt of load, 10 watts, 50 watts, 200 watts? I simply don't understand what changes to allow recovery. Further, looking at the pedal loads it is clear that if there is some recovery that it cannot be complete.

I said earlier that I found a study that might shed some further light on this complicated issue. Here is a link to a study looking at contractile efficiency in human muscle at different frequency. From this data it is clear that gross efficiency can drop as cadence goes up simply because of the contractile velocity. While I knew this I didn't expect it to be so large in this narrow range. This loss would be in addition to any losses we are discussing above.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [LidlRacer] [ In reply to ]
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Nice. But there is no use in calculating this energy because the energy is NOT lost.
It is simply transferrred between the parts of the legs, the cranks and the whole bike and rider.

Maybe you should have a look at this double pendulum:
http://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/lagrange/doublependulum.html
It's parts continously change speed in an amazing way.
But it never stops because it does not lose energy.

Again: A hypothetical metal biker with fixed gear and without friction will roll forever!

Maybe I should better talk to a wall ...
Rather than talk to a wall perhaps you should reanalyze the problem. They are different problems. In your double pendulum problem the total energy of the system remains constant although how it is distributed between kinetic and potential energy is constantly changing. You won't find that to be the case in the hypothetical metal biker. Do the math and pay special attention to the "thighs". It simply cannot be (see the above posts).

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I had a major breakthrough in time trialing by slowing my cadence down and simply pushing a bigger gear. One day during a 40K TT session I just pushed the biggest gear I could to try and stick a speed and sure enough I was able to hold on to it. Since then my cycling has improved immensely. However I am now training for my first IM in Switzerland, so I'd be interested to hear about the dissadvantage of riding this way...and is it possible for someone who isn't riding 500 miles a week to ride fast and have a high cadence?

http://www.loopd.com/...pzuelke/Results.aspx
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Re: cadence [apzuelke] [ In reply to ]
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"I had a major breakthrough in time trialing by slowing my cadence down and simply pushing a bigger gear."

i like to keep an open mind about things. that open mind is something that our sport has exhibited, allowing us to use hard shell helmets, clipless pedals, disc wheels, bar end shifters, plug in break levers, altered TT geometries, power meters, clincher racing tires, typically before pure cyclists embrace these ideas en masse, and this doesn't touch on the stylistic elements where triathletes have broken new ground.

that said, it seems to me that when you replace a new technology or technique for an old one, there ought to be a good reason. the questions i would ask are:

1. what are we talking about, quantitatively? going from 90 to 70, or 105 to 90? and over what distances?
2. what constitutes a breakthrough? faster cycling times during field trials? just a feeling of going faster? being able to ride more comfortably in the aero position for a longer time? not getting injured?
3. i wonder whether folks who have certain morphologies and physiologies are better suited for slower cadences. for example, if god designed you to be a 260lb lineman, not a 120lb marathoner, and you're blessed with ballistic strength but not with aerobic power, maybe you're a candidate for a slower cadence. i don't know.

all that established, i'm still a fan of paying careful attention to what the best athletes do, and, most of the best athletes today are riding a cadence between 90 and 105 during their pure TTs that take under an hour. but, those who're riding that way weren't built, from birth, to excel at blocking nose tackles, and triathlon is a big-tent sport; it includes those of all morphologies.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than talk to a wall perhaps you should reanalyze the problem. They are different problems. In your double pendulum problem the total energy of the system remains constant although how it is distributed between kinetic and potential energy is constantly changing. You won't find that to be the case in the hypothetical metal biker. Do the math and pay special attention to the "thighs". It simply cannot be (see the above posts).

Of course the pendulum is different, else it would be a bike. :-) The bike + biker is a bit more complex because of more moving parts and a bit more simple because the parts can't move freely. Still the effects are the same.
What happens in the double pendulum only is more obvious than it is in the bike(er). Energy is transferred between different parts moving with varying speeds.

Why don't you understand, that the "metal biker" simply has no possibility to lose energy, since there is no friction or any other energy consuming effect anywhere? It can do nothing else than transfer energy between it's different moving parts. When the legs move slower, the whole bike moves a little bit faster. When the legs move faster, the bike moves a little bit slower. You don't need math for that. It's trivial.
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Re: cadence [pedaller] [ In reply to ]
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Pedaller:
At 84 bpm with our assumptions there is 22.63J max kinetic energy in one thigh.
Pedaller, I get approximately 2 J. Granted we should add the weight of the rest of the leg which is also accelerated and stopped. But the way you approximated the calculation, one thigh will weigh approx. 14 kg, and the max speed of the pedal will be about 1 m/s, without calculating 4 digits, 1/2 * m * v^2 = 7 J. However, since the thigh moves as a pendulum, and portions of the thigh closer to the hip contribute much less to kinetic energy the total kinetic energy is 1/3 of what it would be if the same mass were concentrated at the pedal = 2.3 J

Frank,
I believe the moment of inertia you used is for a rod rotating around its mid-point. For a rod rotating around one end, it's twice as much.

But anyway, I believe that since thigh kinetic energy is a fraction of the energy necessary to overcome bike friction and drag, this approach is bound to miss the optimization problem.

Giovanni Ciriani
http://www.GlobusSHT.com
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I had a similar "epiphany" earlier this year when I found that when doing TT-effort intervals, I could maintain a higher power output if I concentrated on pushing a slightly bigger gear than I would "normally" and maintain a cadence of 85-90 rpm...as opposed to when left to my own devices and I would end up at 95-105 rpm (important note: this is with 172.5mm cranks on both bikes. I'm beginning to think cadence shouldn't be discussed without the context of crank length).

I think for me it's a case of the majority of my riding being road riding/racing in fast groups. I've basically trained myself to "spin" to be able to accommodate large variations in speed easier...but, TT efforts aren't about speed variation, they're more like doing a steady-state hill climb IMO, where I find myself typically turning in a range of 75-85 rpms when going at maximal effort for the duration.

Now then, I definitely won't be mistaken for a nose tackle, but my sports history would probably tend to indicate that I've got a fair share of fast-twitch fibers in my legs...i.e. my best sports in HS were sprints, long jump, high jump, triple jump, basketball, and volleyball (outside hitter).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: cadence [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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all that established, i'm still a fan of paying careful attention to what the best athletes do, and, most of the best athletes today are riding a cadence between 90 and 105 during their pure TTs that take under an hour. but, those who're riding that way weren't built, from birth, to excel at blocking nose tackles, and triathlon is a big-tent sport; it includes those of all morphologies.
Dan,

The only issue I have with your analysis is almost all of those top cyclists who TT at a cadence between 90 and 105 also race other venues (track or road racing) that force them to ride at higher cadences to race effectively. Since TT is a small part of their overall racing scheme it may be that they have not spent the time they should have or could have to optimize this part of their game so they "feel better" at a cadence that they spend the most time training at. Plus, most of these folks are putting out much more power than the average cyclist or triathlete and we have already seen studies that show that the most efficient cadence increases with power. Therefore, while these riders may be riding at a cadence that is higher than optimal, their power may be so high that it is not far from their optimal cadence.

So, what do I take from this. I think it is necessary for everyone to study and analyze the best athletes in any sport to try to learn from them. But, if the science suggests that what they are doing is not optimal then, it seems to me, that we should be trying to explain why they might do something that is, seemingly, sub-optimal. Or, if the science doesn't suggest why they deviation is seemingly superior maybe the science is lacking. Of course, if they all race "sob-optimally" then there is no penalty for doing it in a race as they are all equaly suboptimal and the "best person" still wins. However, as soon as one deviates substantially from the norm (Chrissie?, Fosbury flop, those new speed skates) and starts dominating then it seems to me that observers should be paying close attention to see what they may have been missing. It didn't take long for people to adapt to the new high jumping technique as soon as it was understood. What is so difficult about understanding this cadence issue?

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [LidlRacer] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than talk to a wall perhaps you should reanalyze the problem. They are different problems. In your double pendulum problem the total energy of the system remains constant although how it is distributed between kinetic and potential energy is constantly changing. You won't find that to be the case in the hypothetical metal biker. Do the math and pay special attention to the "thighs". It simply cannot be (see the above posts).

Of course the pendulum is different, else it would be a bike. :-) The bike + biker is a bit more complex because of more moving parts and a bit more simple because the parts can't move freely. Still the effects are the same.
What happens in the double pendulum only is more obvious than it is in the bike(er). Energy is transferred between different parts moving with varying speeds.

Why don't you understand, that the "metal biker" simply has no possibility to lose energy, since there is no friction or any other energy consuming effect anywhere? It can do nothing else than transfer energy between it's different moving parts. When the legs move slower, the whole bike moves a little bit faster. When the legs move faster, the bike moves a little bit slower. You don't need math for that. It's trivial.
The metal biker has to have the possibility to lose energy since the energy of the system cannot be constant (simply add up the energy of the various parts throughout one revolution) without energy being put in or taken outside of the boundaries. Since your biker doesn't allow energy to be put in, everytime energy is taken out, the bike, as a whole, must slow down.

The reason I "don't understand" why the metal biker "has no possibility to lose energy" is because such a statement is pure nonsense if one actually analyzes the problem, which you clearly haven't. See the above discussions about the energy variation associated with the thigh movement then apply them to your "metal biker".

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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"It didn't take long for people to adapt to the new high jumping technique as soon as it was understood. What is so difficult about understanding this cadence issue?"

i agree that paradigm shifts in technique occur. in my lifetime, i can think of these: fosbury flop, bill koch skating an entire xc race; discus spin replacing the glide shot put; underwater dolphin kick replacing surface swimming in fly and back; i'm sure there are others, but, i just can't think of them. they're rare. there are also aborted tries, like, doing a front somersault during the long jump.

i don't think chrissie wellington, as fine an athlete as she is, can be safely placed in that paradigm shifting category yet. but, let's say she is a paradigm shifter. i'm sure that, as you say, and as sporting history illustrates, the other top pro cyclists and triathletes won't let more than a few months elapse before they start emulating her.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank: yeah, my numbers should have been quartered. Oops. How embarrassing. Thanks for the correction. Maybe I'll draw a picture next time, or else stick to dead reckoning (and heckling on that basis... ;-) -- obviously I'm not devoting the time necessary to get the right answers.

But, while interesting, it doesn't matter much. Even if the total kinetic energy of the two thighs is not constant, you are not allowing for slight accelerations/decelerations of the bike+rider, which act as an energy reservoir. 5.7J if imparted to a bike+rider going 10 m/s will vary the speed by 0.007 m/s (25m/hr, ie, 0.025 km/h). You probably wouldn't perceive the energy being absorbed and released, which might lead you to think it isn't happening. But is it?

I'll read your link later. There is no doubt that contractile efficiency will drop with speed, but the point remains about defining how much and under what conditions that matters.
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Re: cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The metal biker has to have the possibility to lose energy since the energy of the system cannot be constant (simply add up the energy of the various parts throughout one revolution) without energy being put in or taken outside of the boundaries. Since your biker doesn't allow energy to be put in, everytime energy is taken out, the bike, as a whole, must slow down.

The reason I "don't understand" why the metal biker "has no possibility to lose energy" is because such a statement is pure nonsense if one actually analyzes the problem, which you clearly haven't. See the above discussions about the energy variation associated with the thigh movement then apply them to your "metal biker".

Maybe we have differing conceptions of the "metal biker". I think of a metal man sitting on a fixie.
Why are the legs decelerated in some points of the movement? Because the pedals apply a force to them.
Maybe you have heard of actio = reactio.
When the pedal applies a force to the bikers leg, the bikers leg applies a force in the opposite direction to the pedal. This will acceerate the bike.
And vice versa.
As I said: Trivial.

@pedaller:
Now you get it right! The whole bike + biker constantly accelarates and decelerates a little bit. There goes the energy and nowhere else.
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