According to Cobb's latest windtunnel foray, your NeverReach bottle is just barely better than the least preferable option for hydration systems from an aero standpoint. Beyond getting a decent set of race wheels like H3s or Zipps, you would be far better served to spend your $$ on something like a PowerTap or Computrainer that can help you improve your engine.

The few extra seconds you gain on "aero" equipment is nothing compare to the gain you'll make by training little more.

great shot marine! you have used comoonsesne to avoid this thread from falling into an endless argument on how to save fractions of a second by spending thousands of dollars.

it's all about the engine. all these great windtunnel tests are done at 30 mph. who rides that fast.

better training and better diet. better than anything aero.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Time trial riders are like drug addicts, spending
thousands of dollars for aero advantage but as
all your rivals can also have this expensive equipment, there will be no advantage, you are
spending your cash just to be normal.
Something legal that nobody else can use is what
gives the real advantage and this was why Anquetil
was invincible in TT's and it did not cost a cent.
Ignoring the advice of the experts and using
commonsense can be far more rewarding than the
most expensive aero equipment.

Position first, then the H3 front wheel, followed by a Renn disk (no need to spend outrageous sums on the rear wheel).

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

great, now I'm being stereotyped .... as an addict (I won't argue).

anyway, yes, its all about the engine baby, and I've dumped as much 'green' into my bike as anyone to get it aero. It is as aero as it's going to get, now it's all me. I am training harder than ever and I reached my benchmark goals right on track this season and hope to exceep them and take the Gold in the State TT Championships. It's only 10% bike - I did however just add a sneaky little Spanish device that will give me about a 1 mph advantage or 2+ minutes in a 40k. More to follow.....



Gary

I know, the expensive ROTOR CRANKS which do
offer an advantage but you will still be using the
round or circular pedaling style which has many
disadvantages. The true test for pedaling perfection
is how it performs with " one legged pedaling ".
Those cranks can be purchased by anyone with cash
so there goes any advantage they have to offer. The
gains here are made by the inventor, YOUR CASH.

True, they can be purchased by anyone, as can anything. You cannot however purchase the engine, devotion, or drive which is what wins races.

I wasn't planning on making upgrades and sitting on the couch. Of course it goes without saying I am going to be training hard and hopefully smart this was more a hardware question where I was trying to gleen info from people that are knoweldgeable in these matters.

"The true test for pedaling perfection
is how it performs with " one legged pedaling ". "

mmm, so following on, the true test of running style is how one performs whilst hopping?????

I understand completely where you are going with this. I never assumed you would be sitting still. But spend your money wisely. If you want me to spell it out for you more clearly, beyond some really macro changes like good racing wheels, you are chasing your tail trying to spend your way to a faster bike. We have this discussion all the time on this board. You are looking for faster bike splits, right? Here's my argument: You can spend $1000 for a set of H3s and improve your 40k time by something on the order of 1-2 minutes instantly. BUT you will never gain any more time for that expenditure. You could spend $1000 for a PowerTap Pro and not gain anything INSTANTLY, but within a couple of months, utilizing the feedback from the unit to design and target your training, you will see improvements of much more than that 1-2 minutes you got with the H3s. How much you improve depends on you, but I'd think 5 minutes over 40k for the average AGer is not unreasonable. AND you will continue to gain time over months and years of using this tool to target your training. Next year, when you are down to making minor incremental improvements with the PowerTap, spend the $$ to get wheels to further improve your time. After that, my experience is that you can throw money at trying to become faster with aero this-and-thats and not gain much more than a handful of seconds over 40k altogether. Do you want to get faster or look cool. I'm hanging the Hed aero bars on my new bike because they are the latest and greatest and they look cool, NOT because they are going to make me appreciably faster than the Syntace setup on many bikes out there. I can afford it. BUT I've already got a PowerTap Pro, Computrainer, and several sets of race wheels.

I love it when a guy asks a straightforward question about gear, and over serious athletes turn it into a lecture on work ethic.

Now were getting somewhere. To maximize my training a PowerTap Pro would be helpful and it sounds like the consensus is racing wheels would be worth it. Is it worth getting them one at a time and if so front or back first or should I just wait and get a set. By the way these upgrades as well as this forum and Tri Mags help keep me excited and motivated about training and the sport.That also factors in to the equation. I certainly am not going to stop funding my retirement or kids education over bike parts. Thanks Norm.

There are many more knowledgable than me - but I've always read that the front wheel matters more than the rear. I agree with the Computrainer/powertap 1st - but if I was going aero - I'd buy a front racing wheel 1st and then rear. I'd work on my position first (before buying racing wheels) - make sure I was as aero as possible yet comfortable (esp. half IM up - comfort before aero). I don't think the water bottle/aero bottle thing matters much - I just keep them on the tubes. If you put them behind the seat make sure they are low and out of the wind slipstream coming off your back. Half IM up nutrition and hydration key - work on those. Pacing also super important - heart rate monitor? In half IM, I'd put comfort on the bike, nutrition and hydration, and pacing all way ahead of aero......I won't even go into the engine/work ethic stuff thats been harped on.....

I, for one, never questioned or lectured on work ethic. I simply posited that a piece of gear that helps improve training will make Norm faster than any piece of aero gear. Its a matter of prioritization, which is what Norm was asking.

Make sure you take a look at the Renn Disc for the rear. I've raced mine all season and love it.

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Andy

'You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Thinsg Are As They Are.'

As someone else noted, the general wisdom has been that the front end is the most important. That's been the accepted method since cyclists really began focusing on equipment. However, that belief is based on an immature understanding of aerodynamics. Folks like Cobb have helped folks begin to understand that aerodynamics are far more complex and that putting air back together at the rear determines a great amount of the aero equation. Should you go with front or rear? I think it depends. Certain aero wheels may make your bike "feel" unbalanced, especially in windy situations when combined with standard rear wheels. I personally don't like the combination of an H3 front and standard rear (I used this combo once with an H3 front and PowerTap hub/open pro rim rear). The back end of the bike felt really squirrelly and less planted. Of course that was a windy day. Was it fast or slow? I don't really know, but I felt "wrong" on the bike that day. By contrast, an H3 rear and an Xaero-lite front felt planted. A disc can really help the rear feel planted no matter what the front. I'd try to ride various combinations of wheels to see if they work well together. I dont' think you can go wrong with a combo like an H3 front and Renn disc rear. Its relatively inexpensive set compared to, say, Zipp 909s. In that case, I'd get the disc first and the front second. In fact, any combination of H3 would prompt me to buy the rear wheel first. I would consider a Zipp 404 or Alps front paired with a standard rear (especially paired with my Powertap rear). FWIW, I have owned Specialized tri-spokes, Zipp 404s, DA/Mavic CXP-30s, and Cosmos wheelsets at the same time and have ridden all combinations of the above wheels as well as pairing a friend's Zipp disc with the 404 and H3 fronts. I feel the best three combinations that provide the best combinations of speed and flexibility of use in varying conditions are H3 front/disc rear, dual H3s, and then Zipp 404/Hed Alps.
Well that was a pagefull.

yup, that sounds right to me. disc first, then H3 [or other front aero].

"you don't understand much about aerodynamics, do you?"

well i did get a masters degrees in aerodynamics from disco tech. it was revoked when they discovered an illegal fairing on my leasure suit during a co-ed speed hustle contest.

good point but here is a question. during your time in the wind tunnel did you notice that drag increases with speed? you have more drag at 30 mph then 20 mph. my point is all these time savings promises are done at 30 mph where the more drag would be cut be some widget as opposed to a slower speed. in my humble understanding really slow on the uptake opion a gizmo would be less effective where there would be less drag.

i look at jets. during low speeds they have to transform there wings at slower speeds because that what did you call it? a-e-r-o-d-y-n-a-m-i-c-s, christ what a long hard word. this shows to me that air behaves diffrently on objects at diffrent wind speeds.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Once you have the good aerobars... and more importantly... a good aero position... the next most important thing would be the front wheel (tri spoke)... then the rear wheel (disk)... A nice aero fork is good too... but easily third most important of the three... So i say... Look into a nice specialised or corima or HED tri spoke or quad spoked wheel... Also... Almost as important... You dont want to be at 100-120 psi.... MAKE SURE YOU GET TUBULAR WHEELS!!! 200psi is MUCH FASTER!!! Dont go out and spend a lot of money on a wheel and get a clincher... HAHAhah.a... Life is way too short to worry about convenience...