It doesn't matter. More powerful, less powerful, it doesn't matter if you are faster.

Your position on the bike exists along a range of aerodynamics and comfort. Where you are in that range is an expression of your goals. Aggressive goals demand a position that slides towards the left of that range, towards aerodynamics. That's not to say that aerodynamic = uncomfortable. It just means that you have realistic comfort expectations within the context of your larger goal, which is to be fast, ie, aerodynamic.

So achieve an aerodynamic riding position that is in balance with your expectations of comfort, given race distance and goals, and then let power sort itself out. Let's say I have a 9cm drop on my tri bike, can produce 280w at Functional Threshold and that gets me 23mph. I change my position to a 13cm drop, this drop is manageable within the boundaries of my comfort expectations, race goals, etc. However, my FT watts decrease to 260w but my speed goes up to 23.5mph. I'm faster so who cares if I've lost watts. Maybe they'll come up as I adapt, maybe not, all I care about is I'm faster.

With regards to power on road bike vs tri bike, when I first make the switch from road to tri there is some noise: power, PE and HR don't match what I see on the road bike. Sooner or later they largely come around but I'm MUCH faster on the tri bike. A good bit less comfortable, but manageable and I won't hesitate to make changes to become more comfortable. In '05 I experimented with my position and learned the painful lesson that comfort = power. I was so uncomfortable at CaliHalf that I could only ride at IM watts and there was nothing I could do about it.

In short, I think it's a wasted exercise to chase power with your position. All that matters is the end result, speed, and are you comfortable enough to sustain that fast riding position for the duration of your race.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
Create a FREE 7-day trial membership

Thanks for the reply, Rich. While I completely agree with your assessment, I was actually just interested in why the aero position is typically viewed as less powerful. Is there data to support the claim, and if so, what is the root cause of the loss of power?

There's an article on the net somewhere that the researchers concluded that you actually produce the most power sitting upright as on a mountain bike, but this would be more than compensated for by aerodynamics in the real world. There are a couple of studies that demonstrate no power increase or decrease with slack vs steep angles, however these are done on indoor spinning machines and don't measure what happens when you get lower in the front as you would on a tri bike, so they are inconclusive.

As Rich says, faster is faster and there are other factors to consider besides just power. Gaining a few watts in power would be irrelevant if you're not going faster due to other factors such as aerodynamics.

Here's a nifty little calculator that shows the theoretical speeds produced on different bicycles at the same power, or you can plug in speed and determine how much power you have to produce on a road or mountain bike to go as fast as your tri bike. It's obvious here that the recumbents are the fastest bicycles.

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

Great reply! Can I semi-hijack this to ask Rich a question? :)

I bought a new tri bike and set it up with a more aggressive position (more drop, narrower elbows) a couple of months ago. For one reason or another, I've been on the tri bike a limited amount lately, and just got the Powertap back on it today for the first time. Went to do my 2x20 FT intervals and just died. My power was down 50-75 watts from the road bike.

Funny part is that I'm faster on it so far than I was on the last bike: time trials and one Oly triathlon show improvements.

So now I wonder: was today an anomaly? Hope so! I'll know more after a few more rides, of course.

..Or is a power drop that large to be expected when I'm just adapting to the position? How long should it take to adapt?

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Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

That's a huge power loss.
Torque was zero'ed on the PT?
Any setting changes, hub and monitor batteries good,...?
Do you have old training files and can you compare road vs tri files in CyclingPeaks? What may look like 50-75w when observing the monitor could be quite different when you download the file into CPS.

In short, with a wattage delta that big I'd want to isolate possible equipment errors first.

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Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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I think that "aero isn't powerful" comes from roadies. Without starting a flame war, roadies aren't the most thinking people out there, but it's not their fault. The UCI has stifled innovation since they banned the recumbant way back int 1927 I think it was, right up to the ill-conceived current bike weight limit. Roadies are mired in tradition, and no-one ever seems to know where the tradition started! They often follow what the good guys are doing, without finding out why the good guys are good. For exmple, Lance could probably have won on a Huffy, because he was so strong (doesn't matter HOW he got strong) If he'd done it like that, everyone would be on Huffy's.

Generally, trigeeks come from a less traditional background and the sport was pretty much founded on innovation, so we don't come with any preconceived ideas. We seem to investigate and research to a greater extent (although not to as purely scientific extent as I think is best) so we end up trying to achieve a goal, by finding better ways to achieve those goals (going fast in timed events) and not simply do what everyone else is doing.

The above is just my opinion formed over 15 years in this sport and hangin with trigeeks and roadies equally. Since they train for cycling more than us, they are generally better cyclists. This does not mean we should train like them or ride bikes like them. They generally swim like crap, by comparison, but that doesn't matter to them, and swimming does matter to us. I don't swim like a roadie because as a rule, they don't have anything to offer in swimming. I don't ride like a roadie beacuse they have little to offer since they ride different types of cycle races that me. We have to find out own solutions to our problems and many times that is not attained best by following roadies. Sometimes it is, but generally not.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

New wheel, but I did zero it. I couldn't sustain goal wattage and the download backs it up (Powertap Link, I don't have CP).

I hope I was just having a very off day. I felt OK starting but was on the verge of puking, passing out, or both when I tried to crank it up. Of course, this would have to happen on my very first ride w/the PT on this bike, and make me paranoid. :-)

I haven't done the 2x20 in a while, but I have a bunch of recent road rides with 1 hour peaks at least 40+ watts higher. I need to get CP so that it will pick out these numbers for me.

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Kendall Frederick

Orange Park, FL

To answer your question on data, yes there is data. Many people with a tri bike and a road bike report lower power numbers on the tri bike. I see about 10 to 15 watts lower, on average, on my tri bike. As Rich said, however, when I'm riding the tri bike properly (in the aero bars 95% of the time or more), I am faster on it. I would classify the power loss as real, often not important because I'm faster, but real nonetheless.

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Jason
Dig It Triathlon and Multisport
http://www.digittri.com

Yeah, what Rich said...

The only thing I'd add is that you'll probably be strongest in the position you train the most. I tend to do a lot (and I mean a lot) of training in the aero position so I can't relate to the comments that people make about seeing differences in power in the aero position vs power in the hoods. I promise you, I'm actually more powerful in the aero position because I train most often in the aero position.

Thanks, Chris

Are your hip angles and knee angles the same (or at least very close) on both bikes? And do you train on both bikes an equal amount of time? I'm just wondering where this real power loss is coming from.

In my experience any power loss is due to a narrower hip angle and sometimes a lower effective saddle height. In general, I find people are not far enough forward over the BB when adopting an aggressive aero position. I agree with Tridork that some of the old roadie and UCI "wisdom" continues to permeate people's beliefs regarding positioning. But there was a study out there that showed that even cyclists inexperienced in riding forward performed better on a ride/run in the forward position. There is no downside to being forward IMO if your bike geometry can handle it. I find little loss in seated power too.

If you get forward enough and open your hip angle enough, there should be negligible power loss. For an aggressive drop up front, you may well need to sit at 82 degrees or further forward. And remember that if you are measuring your saddle height using a tape, the point you need to measure to changes depending on whether you are riding aero or upright. Hence the need to raise the saddle for an aero setup to maintain the same knee angle. That said, I find the hip angle to be the key.

If you have a power meter, see what happens to your power on a nice flat stretch at moderate intensity if you slide forward on the saddle, and then slide back. I find there is almost a threshold effect when you hit a certain hip angle where power jumps up.

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TK
ttbikefit.com

This position costs me nearly 40 watts in power output -- but it's still worth it:

http://www.photoreflect.com/...0051&po=51&c

To achieve my road bike thigh-torso angle and save that power, my saddle would need to be another 5 inches or so in front of the BB -- requiring a commensurate increase in stem length (already at 17cm).



-jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Here is my understanding of the reason why some people believe that the forward position is not as powerful as the road position. IF you open the hip angle as you move forward, then you reduce the ability to engage the hamstrings because with an open hip angle you have effectively reduced or eliminated the hamstrings range of motion where they develop power.

This is the reason that Lemond bikes always have a more slack seat angle than most bikes; Lemond was a staunch believe that even most road riders ride to far forward, and to open at the hip, to generate power. Look at Lemond and you will see he always rode far back, and bent over at the torso. So much so that he had a flat torso even riding with the seat well set back from the bottom bracket. People who ride in this type position will correctly point out that if your torso is horizontal, and you maintain that horizontal position while rotating forward, then you must open the hip angle, and reduce power output. Thus they will question why even move forward to begin with.

I believe people who like to ride forward are often people coming from a non-cycling background that just haven't developed strength in this low position, thus they are more comfortable riding forward with an open hip angle. Look at triathletes who come from a road cycling background, and I think most ride farther back than those who come from other sports. There was a post titled "And so is Graham Obree (back that is)" a couple of days ago. Look at the recent pictures of Graham and you will also see this "seat back, torso low" position.

This is also the reason that some coaches will advocate at least some training on a road bike, to strengthen the hamstrings which are not getting as much use while riding aero. Again, the assumption is that your body geometery is different on a road bike versus your tri bike, but I think most triathletes actually work to keep the angles in the body the same. In that case, training on a different bike is of no use.

In summary, I believe you are correct that if all angles are maintained, then there is no difference in the ability to produce power between the "different" positions. However, in practice, many people who ride forward have also opened their hip angle.

Paul

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2015 USAT Long Course National Champion (M50-54)

for those of you posting here -- and who all seem to have accepted the urban myth -- please find me any evidence that a proper aero position produces less power. hint => there is one study that shows a very modest loss in power, much smaller than anyone here is indicating. this is offset by a plethora of other studies suggesting the opposite.

when i say "suggesting" i mean that there are roundabout ways of looking at this. it depends on what your floating metric is, that is, you try two positions, and you keep the power output the same, and you measure some metric: lactate accumulation, HR, whatever. if this metric favors one position over the other, then one can assume something about power, that is, if the power output is fixed during the test, and one accumulates less lactate in one position versus another, then it's reasonable to leverage this result and say that at at a given work load more power would be produced.

i simply have not found that the body of evidence compiled in the lab points to less power being produced AT ALL while in the aero position. i *suspect* that less torque is generated, but i also suspect that's overcome by a higher cadence, which appears to be more easily sustained while in the aero position riding a steeper seat angle. remember, power is torque times RPMs, not just torque.

so, while rich is right, that they don't give away podium places for power, but for how fast you go, i'm unwilling to grant that you have to give up any power when you trade in your road bike for a tri bike. you have to prove that to me first.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It depends on the position, doesn't it? I refer you to the position I posted above. I've done multiple 20 and 60 minute maximal power tests in this position and in my road position. The power difference is very consistent. Morever, in TTs that have significant off-the-aerobars climbing, my average power increases commensurately with the time off the aerobars.

Now, if you can get me my road power in that position, I promise I will personally send you the World TT Championship jersey that I will thence be able to remove from Thurlow Rogers' tight grasp.



-- jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

"It depends on the position, doesn't it?"

of course. a bad aero position produces less power. a bad non-aero position produces less power. if this is your point, i stipulate. if you've got anything other than a token drop-off in power when you're in the aero position, my guess is you've got a bad aero position.

thurlow was in my neighborhood 3 weeks ago and pretty much decimated the entire pro/1/2 field, and that includes out-climbing one of california's best pure climbers in a race that net ascends about 10,000' over 80 miles. good luck :-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Jens,
I'm sure it isn't comfortable nor particularly safe to ride on open roads but how much training have you done in that position?

I'll take on the challenge ;-)

Personally I'm not happy unless I can meet or better (in a race) my road bike power on the TT bike. But I'll also admit to having gone too low/ acute and suffering a whopping loss in power (spring 2005). Something around 10% and I was demonstrably slower ... partly due to the terrain I think. But there was a discontinuity to put it loosely - power was fine unless my drop went below ~20cm and then I simply imploded. I judged power over local ~30min training TT's and gave it 5-6 weeks to adapt to my lowest position. I'm UCI limited as well so couldn't attempt going any further fwd (-5cm and tipping it on flat terrain).

Hard to tell from that pic what your angles are at full extension and fullly compressed. Do you have any side shots or a video. There must be something you can do to recover that power. It's in you isn't it? ;0)

further to the point, i don't doubt that you lose 40w versus your road position. my view is that you're one of those people who thinks they give away podium spots for who's got the lowest drag:kg. alas, they don't. nobody on the world scene rides in the position you ride, and for good reason. perhaps you need to have the master take a crack at your position. i take a coupla pro bono cases every year :-)

but you also need to agree on a metric by which you'll abide. you've got a nice area to set up field trials there in the sierra valley. maybe set yourself up a course and try the old position versus the new.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's a pretty good quote :-D

This thread is why people love ST. Some awesome comments and knowledge being displayed here. Carry on.

Holy Moly -17cm stem?! I would love to see your position from the side. In that photo it looks to me like your elbows are way too far out in front of your shoulders, but maybe it's the angle. However, your upper back also appears to confirm this. Maybe you are waisting energy holding that position which looks far from comfortable. What effective seat angle do you ride at now? How did you determine that you need to be 5 inches (!) further forward? Just curious.

2ndly, assuming what you say is true, have you confirmed that the current position's aero benefits are worth the power loss vs. a slightly less "aero" position with better power? As I'm sure you know, another way to open the hip is reduce the drop up front a bit.

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TK
ttbikefit.com

A Jens vs. Jens smackdown? Is that even legal?

Seeing how enormous my power loss is, it should be real easy to identify how my position is 'bad.' Any ideas?

My current CdA is around .20, my 25 minute road power about 325. By my estimates that would have put me about 20 seconds ahead of Thurlow in last years World Championships.


-jens

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

There are certain positions that I think you can argue that are VERY effective positions that do necessitate a drop off in power, mostly due to geometric restrictions of the bike, but which more than make up for it in terms of speed. I think that Jens's power-to-speed ratios would argue that he clearly does not have a bad aero position, yet he does show a drop-off in power, due to being forced to close off his hip angle (since he cannot get the saddle any further forward and cannot realistically run a 22cm stem). Yet the position is clearly worth the tradeoff. However, it is worth noting that Jens is not running off this position, so a more aggressive position will not take it's toll as much as it would on a triathlete (hence the reason that even Gerard has said he'd modify the position of rider's like Cancellara and Zabriskie were they to be racing a triathlon). The Obree Egg is another position that would seem to necessarily close of the hip angle, but which is of course, very worthwhile. The Superman is another interesting position, that features a relatively open hip angle since the body is not so low, but which strains the body in other ways which *might* cause a dropoff in power, but which is obviously worthwhile. Coggan has also mentioned a hands-behind-the-back position which is extremely fast due to the fact that you can eliminate big chunks of the frame. This position would again seem to measurably reduce sustained power, but which has shown to be very effective.

I think when you get into the more *extreme* end of positions designed solely to optimize aerodynamics, you do get a measurable drop off in power (e.g. 10-15%, if my math on Jens's FTP is somewhat correct), but such a drop is definitively worthwhile. Whether or not these positions make practical sense for multisport competition is another matter. So perhaps it is best to say an effective TRIATHLON position should not show any dropoff power, which excludes bizarre (yet superbly aerodynamic) positions for road TT'ing (tho I suspect there are not too many outliers here), track racing (since the ability to climb and/or descend is totally eliminated), and of course HPV-racing where one of the fastest current racers has trained himself to pedal lying on his side so that he can reduce the width of his fully-faired recumbent by about half.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp