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advantage of Torhans vs BTA
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With father's day coming, my wife has asked what I would like this year. I was thinking a Torhans aero 20/30 might be a nice change from my current BTA (x-lab torpedo with standard water bottle). Is there an actual speed advantage/disadvantage to changing to the Torhans system? While it's sort of a guilt free present, I would still like to know it's sort of well spent money. Any feedback is appreciated.
Last edited by: aries33: Jun 4, 15 11:18
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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aries33 wrote:
With father's day coming, my wife has asked what I would like this year. I was thinking a Torhans aero 20/30 might be a nice change from my current BTA (x-lab torpedo with standard water bottle). Is there an actual speed advantage/disadvantage to changing to the Torhans system? While it's sort of a guilt free present, I would still like to know it's sort of well spent money. Any feedback is appreciated.

If you can get the Torhans 30 very close to the head tube (I think something like 1 inch or less) it can save a whole bunch of drag. Some bikes headtubes and handle bars will make this difficult (bikes with bayonett style front ends make this way easier). ERO has said that the BTA bottle is not fool proof and most of their original tests showed increased drag with a BTA versus no BTA. They have not given away what the trick is, but if your BTA is not very well shielded by your arms and your arms are not hugging the BTA, the Torhans 30 is probably faster.

Simply: Torhans 30 positioned great is better than any BTA, but this is limited by your frame and handlebars. A Torhans 30 itself is faster than a badly positioned BTA.
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
If you can get the Torhans 30 very close to the head tube (I think something like 1 inch or less) it can save a whole bunch of drag. Some bikes headtubes and handle bars will make this difficult (bikes with bayonett style front ends make this way easier).

On my old P2C, I can get my Torhans close, but it is so low I cannot drink from it and have any vision of the road ahead of my front wheel. If I pull the tubing up from the aero sheath a few inches (when I drink) I can see a few feet ahead when I drink (but the tubing no longer reaches the bottom so I cannot drink the whole 30 oz). Am I doing something wrong?
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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Other than that you have the weight a little lower and closer to the frame.

-shoki
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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You can also get the XLAB torpedo bottle (the refillable one with the straw). Then you can swap between using that or replaceable bottles depending on the race.

http://xlab-usa.com/...ill-upgrade-kit.html


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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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Don't forget we also make a BTA, the AeroZ. The Aero 30 close to headtube can is very hard to beat though.

Hans Bielat
TorHans LLC Co-Founder, Owner, Chief Innovation Officer
http://www.torhans.com
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Ted Striker] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Ted. Have most of the problems the earlier 30's had been resolved? Specifically, the mast falling off during bumpy rides and the lid leaking. Thank you for the feedback.
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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I super glued mine to the bottle. No falling off now. I am still trying to figure out a way to get it a bit closer to the head tube, about 2.5 inches now. I tried a BTA but couldn't get my computer at the tip of my extensions because they're too short. I figured even though it might be a bit too far away, looking down to see my computer might be less aero than it being a bit too far from the head tube.

My Blog - Twitter - Instagram - JonnyO Coaching - ICE Friction - SLF Motion - Own Way Apparel -
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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The current Aero 20s and Aero 30s have barbed collars so the aero masts are basically fixed on there. New Aero 20s and Aero 30s will be out late summer. Details on these coming in about a month.

Hans Bielat
TorHans LLC Co-Founder, Owner, Chief Innovation Officer
http://www.torhans.com
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Ted Striker] [ In reply to ]
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I think I have asked this before but wanted to ask again since race season is here and I want to make sure I get the correct hydration on the front. What is the distance from the head tube to either be neutral or negative drag. I know right on the head tube is FAST but mine is about 2.5 inches away because of the bayonet stem that I have to use. I have the mount flipped upside down. I could cut off the part of the mount that is closest to the head tube to get it that much closer. I love the set up because of the amount of fluid I get but don't want to give up free watts!

My Blog - Twitter - Instagram - JonnyO Coaching - ICE Friction - SLF Motion - Own Way Apparel -
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [jrielley] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Jrielley,

I think we have established from all of our tests, plus athlete/third party tests that 1 inch to 11/2 inch away will be drag negative on most bikes. To expand on that, the best results are at low yaw usually. Beyond that it is mixed between slightly negative, neutral or the same as most BTA systems. If Jim@ERO is on here I know he has a plethora of Aero 30 data. And Jim has my permission to release any of our data. If you can get in closer to the head tube it wins hands down.

If you want to send me a pic of your setup at Hans@torhans.com I'm pretty creative with getting the unit closer.

Cheers,

Hans

Hans Bielat
TorHans LLC Co-Founder, Owner, Chief Innovation Officer
http://www.torhans.com
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [jrielley] [ In reply to ]
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I don't "know" this answer based on experience, but rather reading over the information the last few days trying to find that answer myself. The number previously provided by Hans (I think) was 2 inches. I have seen some mods with the most interesting one being a guy who took the "wings" off by pushing the pins out and then put the pins back in and used zip ties instead to mount the main holder to his aero bars. He was able to get it pretty much flush by doing this. If I can find the picture again, I'll post it.

here's the link

http://forums.transitions.org.au/index.php?showtopic=57993
Last edited by: aries33: Jun 8, 15 9:52
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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Exact-o knife. Soldering iron. Silicone glue. Thank you Zach Boring for the tips.



Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Ted Striker] [ In reply to ]
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Ok thanks! I will try to get a pic tonight and send it over to you. I love the ease of the set up because the straw is right there. Would love to keep it if possible.

My Blog - Twitter - Instagram - JonnyO Coaching - ICE Friction - SLF Motion - Own Way Apparel -
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Ted Striker] [ In reply to ]
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Hans recently started using the 30 and love it. The one thing I'm thinking of switching is the side I mount the aero tray on. Rather than have it behind the bottle I was thinking of flipping it to be out front and then using a little tape to stabilize it. In your opinion would moving the tray to the front to mount a 910 have a negative impact on the bottles air flow? I would just like to have a better view of my data. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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Good question, and I was wondering the same thing.
I have the mount flipped, so it rests under the aero bars and allows me to get the bottle lower, and closer to the head tube.
I also used a zip tie to attach the aero tray on the opposite side of the bottle so that it extends out front and gives me a better view of my Garmin....but was wondering if I was giving up watts with this configuration.
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [aries33] [ In reply to ]
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We get this question a lot. It is the reason we did not stick a mount on the front of our AeroZ. There is no definitive answer. It would depend on how wide your aero extensions are and your arm/hand position relative to the placement of the Garmin. Wide extensions I would say yes, putting a unit in front of an airfoil will have additional drag, however I cannot quantify it without testing.

Hans Bielat
TorHans LLC Co-Founder, Owner, Chief Innovation Officer
http://www.torhans.com
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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Well any tips for doing that using a P5-6 traditional (Aduro low-mount) cockpit? This is exactly what I would like to have (it looks fantastic on your bike), but with the Aduro and these collars it looks difficult.

From what I read the Torhans 30 would be choice #1 closely followed by Torhans 30.
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
Exact-o knife. Soldering iron. Silicone glue. Thank you Zach Boring for the tips.


That may be the best setup of a P5-6 I've seen. That bottle is giving you at least 7-8 watts savings fit to the bike like that - maybe closer to 10. Well done!

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

"It's not about longer, or lower, or tilted, or not tilted. It's about getting smaller. Let the wind see as little of you as possible in the best way you can."

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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WELL DONE SIR! Love it. About to make bottle 2.0.

I gave Heather Wurtele the original at IMTX

Hopefully they or I/you will get to test it
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Baboonator] [ In reply to ]
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I got the tip from Zach Boring on these forums, who also helped Team Wurtele to mount his/her Torhans super close to the P5-6 with Aduro.

https://twitter.com/...s/599294620393078784




I lined up the bottle as close as possible, then started to exact-O cut the bottle to match the shape. Once it was cut down, I took a soldering iron to melt on plastic from a regular water bottle to now re-seal my modified Torhans. Then it was a matter of filling with water, check for leaks, and solder some more. Then, for good measure, I put a nice clean coating of food grade silicone sealant around the edges.
Again, another piece of advice from Mr. Boring. I certainly want to give credit where credit is due.


One soldering tip I can provide, if you go this route, is to line up the 2 pieces of plastic you plan to join, then melt a "trench" right at the seam. This will melt both the Torhans plastic and the new bottle plastic. From there, melt over plastic from both sides of the seam to fill the "trench" and smooth off.


I had ZERO soldering experience before this, but love to tinker. Took me about 4 hours in total work time to get it all down.

Alex Arman

Strava
Last edited by: doublea334: Jun 11, 15 9:55
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
doublea334 wrote:


That may be the best setup of a P5-6 I've seen. That bottle is giving you at least 7-8 watts savings fit to the bike like that - maybe closer to 10. Well done!

P5-3 ;)

The Magura brake fairing is OEM from the P5-6. But the "beard" is a shaped piece of aluminum, tip taken from Caroline Steffen's brass beard to fit around the 3T adjustable stem.

Alex Arman

Strava
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, now you're just making my day. Do you have more photos of that set up?

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

"It's not about longer, or lower, or tilted, or not tilted. It's about getting smaller. Let the wind see as little of you as possible in the best way you can."

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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doublea334 wrote:
Exact-o knife. Soldering iron. Silicone glue. Thank you Zach Boring for the tips.


What is the clearance there? I just got an aero 30 for my cannondale slice, and with my cockpit height I am looking at literally a sliver over 1/4" of height. Not sure this is good/optimal/bad...

It also looks like I am going to be learning how to use a soldering iron :)

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: advantage of Torhans vs BTA [doublea334] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you got the technique down well. I found that easiest as well. Also, good tip on the extra water bottle. I had used some VR bottle plastic I had left over from my VR mod on the P3 (see below, aero 30 wasn't fully latched down here, hence the look of the gap) and it reached it's transition temperature higher than the aero 30. Made for some patience. Don't use bento anymore

Overall, this isn't hard. You just need patience. And I appreciate the credit ;) Doubt I'm the first to do this though.


Last edited by: zachboring: Jun 11, 15 10:14
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