I am, but I don't usually say much on the internet. I talk more about it in person.

How many people are men? gay? latino? eskimo? There is absolutely no relation between sport and religion. What is the point of such a question? To see if you can find someone to brick with you in the AM and go watch Mel's Passion in the afternoon? Jesus does not make you faster, training does.

Amen!!

I train with a gay male latino Eskimo and he rarely talks about it.

But the question was, is he Christian?

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Reverend Dr. Jay
Lake of the Pines Triathlon fastest bike course record holder - Golden State Super Sprint fastest tri course record holder - Wildflower Long Course slowest run course record holder (4:46:32)

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"If you have a body, you are an athlete." -Bill Bowerman

Me.

I don't thrust it upon others, but I certainly don't hide it. It almost seems that in society if you believe in something, you're suppossed to keep quiet about it. The only ones allowed to speak are those that aren't "sheep" ... in other words, they believe in nothing, stand for nothing, criticize everything.

What Christianity has to do with training/racing is individual. IMO, both help make me a better person than without them.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I think what people get annoyed about is people who get preachy and tell you that you're going to hell if you're not a Christian. How many atheists/agnostics try to push their beliefs on you? I'm amazed that some people will not race on Sunday because that is 'God's day'. If I was God I'd sure as hell rather see somebody out there enjoying their life on Sunday by doing something healthy that they love.

Good question. Alan Watts once wrote that a Christian is one who tries to emulate the values and teachings and examples of Christ as he is depicted in popular religious rhetoric.

My rudimentary understanding of that literature is J.C. was a stand-up guy, a hard worker, a fair man, a compassionate man, a good family man and he did his best to put others first. He forgave mistakes and made mistakes himself. He is depicted as kind and wise but strong also. He is allegded to have somehow transcended death.

Sure, I'd aspire to that. So sign me up, I'm a Christian.

Now, will I empty a magazine into a Muslim's chest because I am a Christian and he is not? Sorry. My friend Haj at the gas station next door is a Muslim and I like him. He gives me a discount on my water and orange juice every day. Some days we talk about Allah. He sounds like a stand up guy too. So maybe I'm a Muslim. I must admit a romantic attraction to that beautiful call to prayer. Two weeks ago Haj told me he gives me a discount becasue Allah requires him to be good to his neighbors 7 doors in every direction. I walked back to the store and pondered the brilliance of that. But certainly, at some point, Palestine is 7 doors from Israel. Somebody is dropping the ball over there...

Or maybe, I am a Buddhist. I do read the Tao de Ching a lot. I like that book.

I once dated a girl who was a Pagan. She worshipped the earth. I thought it was a beautiful philosophy and she was gentle and kind and never hurt a soul. She is the most loving person I have ever known. So maybe I aspire to be a Pagan.

Or maybe I should just try to be a better person and not worry too much about what that's called.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I am...and I've been clear about it on several posts in the past. Curious to know what your reason for asking is - unless, of course, that reason is to get a bunch of trite, rude or demeaning comments shot back about your faith.

This forum is great for certain things - discussing Christ in any real depth isn't one of them...if you're looking to fellowship, stick with your church.

Funny how all you asked how many people were Christians and you got a couple of smart ass answers back...

As I've stated before on this forum, I am not a Christian even though I've been to church many many times and my grandmother was the principal at a Christian private school. As a child I absolutely loved reading bible stories, though I didn't necessarily believe it all.

I remember when I was about 12 or 13, I asked my mother if she believed in God. We went to church every Easter and every time we spent the weekend with my grandmother, which was at least once a month but never when we were at home. My mother's response was that she believed in evolution; that she was a scientist and she believed in evolution. As an adult, I realize that to a certain extent you can believe in both and that there are some scientists who are also Christians. It wasn't an answer meant for an adult.

To my mother's credit, despite her beliefs, she allowed my grandmother to take us to church and Sunday School frequently and make up our own minds. Unknown to her, I had already made up my mind when I asked the question.

It's always very interesting to me that at Thanksgiving and Xmas dinners, my grandmother initiates grace and we go through the motions even though none of her 4 children are believers. Interestingly my sister is.

I usually don't discuss religion or politics on the Forum, but now I will take this opportunity to say what I believe.

The Great Bunny is a furry, benevolent Goddess. She only believes that one should be happy and live life. She only believes that people should seek her rather than to have her minion seek worshippers.

"Live like me and be happy. I don't know about the other stuff. Pet my nose."- book of Ivan, 1:1-3.

""Knock cautiously as those who may greet you may be dangerous and bear arms"- 2nd book of Bugs, 2:1.

The Great Bunny also does not believe that one should impose their beliefs upon others, nor does she think there's much more to life than being a rabbit: "Pet my nose and get me popcorn. Mmmmmmm, popcorn!!!!"- book of Trixie, 1:1-2.

I see nothing wrong with Christianity, only how the books of the Bible are interpreted. But this can go with the Koran, and even the Talmud. It is the reposnsibility of the cleric of the particular sects. The values are basically the same, and the Deity in which the Big Three are even the same one, as the other religions are pretty much cross-referenced through the different books.

What I just can't get is why theys gots to kill each other over a few differences. The funny thing is, none of the Big Three condone killing, yet they tend to kill each other in the name of G'd, God and Jesus, and Allah (a.k.a. God or G'd) and Mohammed. What the hell?

This is why I like my Goddess. She's cute, benevolent, and she lives in the rabbits whom I share a home with. And I can't wait for, "Oh Greatest of All Great Hare Days" coming up in the spring...

[reply]Jesus does not make you faster, training does.[/reply]

But he can give your life a REAL sense.

Felix

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu

I am.

And to add... my pastor has begun using the term "Christ-follower." Now, there is nothing that is flamboyant or unusual about my church... just straight-forward teaching right out of the Bible.

But the pastor's point is this: so many people identify themselves as a "Christian" yet hold so loosely to the teachings of Christ or the Bible that they end up either watering-down their beliefs, or they become so legalistic that the repel non-believers and skeptics.

Christ was the supreme example of showing complete surrender to and reverence for God the Father, while at the same time extending love and compassion to those hurting around Him.

By the way, Christ was not a great man. He said -- among other things -- that "I and the Father are one," and "there is no way to the Father but through Me." Either He was deranged, or he was pulling a flat-out hoax, or He was exactly who He said.

We can't have it both ways... a "great man" -- arguably the greatest man in history, even according to many skeptics -- would not make the statements Jesus made if those statements are not true.

I would also suggest that to a believer, there is not a separation between being an athlete and being a Christian. On countless occasions, I have quietly prayed for safety for myself and my fellow competitors; I have asked for healing from injury; I have asked for strength for a difficult race; and I have given praise for a beautiful sunset at the end of a long ride, or the snow on the forest trees during a run along a wooded trail.

Ray

I am. Grew up in the church, but didn't actually commit my life to Christ until January of 1997. Been an incredible journey ever since.

RP

I am although I haven't posted it here.



Jimmyk

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jimmyk

Tom, something about your post got under my skin, although I certainly understand the point you were trying to make.

>Alan Watts once wrote that a Christian is one who tries to emulate the values and teachings and examples of
>Christ as he is depicted in popular religious rhetoric.

Well, then I'm afraid Alan Watts is flat out wrong. Although that description describes a good, decent person, something the world could use more of. Like it or not, a Christian first and foremost believes that Jesus was the Son of God and died for mankind's sins. It's fine with me whether someone does or doesn't, but that's the definition.

I don't personally believe that "there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is if prophet" so I don't call myself a Muslim.

Religion/spirituality is about transcending our day to day existence, not simply about being a better person or admiring certain teachings. I understand that concepts like God (whatever name one might use) and Heaven/Hell etc. seem silly to some - as a (sort of) scientist I have a hard time with them too. But they are very important to a lot of people, and shouldn't be trivialized.

>Now, will I empty a magazine into a Muslim's chest because I am a Christian and he is not? Sorry.

I don't really see the point of this sentence. Do you really consider hatred of non-Christians as a defining point of Christianity? I admit that it does exist in some people, but it totally antithetical to Christian teachings.

>I should just try to be a better person and not worry too much about what that's called.

Great advice for everyone, religious or not.

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One thing we must all keep in mind is that in many instances, we cannot judge our lives or what we believe based on the example set by other people -- especially when it comes to Christianity. I find myself getting very frustrated when I look around at other Christians and see how many of them live their lives. I don't say that to put myself up on a pedestal about how I live my life at all -- I am not perfect, nor will I ever be. But many of the judgments passed about the Christian faith come from looking at Christians. And that's not fair. Humans are not always nice, and we don't always do the right things, even when we know better.

The key to Christianity is to look at Christ. Look at His example, and pattern your life after His. You must read the Bible for yourself, and in so doing, you will gain a much broader understanding of Christianity. I discovered quickly that the best way to foster Christian growth would be to read the Good Book for myself. When you do get into the Bible, you will learn some absolutely incredible stuff. You will know what you believe, and more importantly, why you believe it. You will learn that Jesus was more than just a man, that He was God in human flesh. You will learn why this is so, and you will also learn that He did not make any mistakes -- He was truly perfect. For His purpose to be accomplished, He had to be absolutely sinless. Unfortunately, nobody else is sinless, and that's why we do stupid things.

I didn't mean to be so long and rambling, but it comes down to this: For a true picture of Christianity, look at Christ and investigate His life through the Bible. Unfortunately, Christians aren't always the best example of Christ. If we keep our eyes on Him, we'll stay on the right path. I'm not always the best example of Christianity, but I try to the best of my ability to do what's right. I make mistakes, I do some bad things, but I try not to. You shouldn't formulate opinions of Christ by looking at Christians; you should look directly to Christ Himself.

RP

Well written! Tom, if you are not already, you should write a book. Simplicity, clarity, experience, and even a little wisdom. Your words stick. Well done.

Greg

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Where would you want to swim ?

I don't have a problem with christians living/following a christian way of life, if you have that belief (or any other for that matter) and follow it good for you. What bothers me is the need of a number of christians to publicly espouse their belief in the belief they are doing good bringing their beliefs to the rest of the unwashed masses. The original post has no place on a tri board or any other board for that matter save for a board on god, christ, religion etc. If i showed up at your church on Sunday morning and asked to change the sermon to a discussion on triathlon (or any other subject unrelated to god) i doubt it would got over very well.

Why is it Ok for the Mormons, Jehovahs etc. to show up at my door on Saturday morning, or for people to post inflamatory rhetorical questions on a tri board, and tell me why their religion is superior to the last person at my doorstep or desktop? Maybe I should show up at your church sunday morning in a skinsuit with a placard reading "god was a triathlete, repent you clincher user's!!"

I'm not sure why this thread was started, as i notice the originator has yet to reply since the original post. You state that you queried the word christian and came up with over 300 responses. Try typing in cult and see what you get for responses. I'll bet it would suprise you as there is a very scary group who worship PC's night and "day" and continually make reference to sacrafice's and such. If god's work is to be done you should start with this heathen bunch.

"He forgave mistakes and made mistakes himself."

Curious to know what mistakes you beleive to have heard or read that Jesus made...the center of our faith is that he was perfect and blameless - free of sin. This is, of course, assuming by mistakes - you mean something of ill-will or a type of sin.

The bible's been edited and re-edited over thousands of years. It's closer in genre to a historical fictional novel than any real truth. The lessons it provides can give some guidance into every day life, but to accept it just because "the bible tells it so" doesn't conform with critical, open-minded analysis. Read up on the revisionist history of the holy catholic church. Bunch of control freaks, by and large.

Tom, brilliant post.

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Marty Gaal, CSCS
One Step Beyond Coaching
Triangle Open Water Swim Series | Old School Aquathon Series
Powerstroke® Freestyle Technique DVD

Your statement is not true. The Bible as we know it was put together hundreds of years ago using strict criteria and analysis. Some books were excluded, some were not. There are very good reasons for excluding those that were not included in the canon of Scripture. For example, the four gospels are regarded among scholars as being extremely reliable and trustworthy accounts of the life of Jesus. The gospels were written by people who either walked with Christ or, in the case of Luke, by someone who spoke firsthand with one of Christ's disciples (Peter). And they were written less than a generation after the ascension of Christ. Many other biographies of famous people (i.e. Alexander the Great) were written hundreds of years after their deaths by people who were not alive when their subjects were, yet we have no problems accepting these biographies as true and accurate. Many literary scholars do not believe that enough time passed from the time Jesus left the earth until the gospels were written for legends to weave their way into the story of His life.

What you are doing is looking at the history of the church and letting that determine your beliefs. The Catholic Church has a checkered past. So have other denominations and even other religions (I'd say 9/11 took quite a bit of credibility from the Islamic faith). If you have doubts about the truth of the Bible, pick up one and read it. Read it with skepticism and with a critical mind. Research the parts you have problems with or disbelieve, and make sure to look at stuff on both sides of the argument. If you do that, you'll be amazed at what you find. The Bible is much more than a historical fictional novel, and you'll quickly discover that if you read it on your own.

RP

I'm not much for message board back-scratchin or fanny-patting (or is it back-pattin and fanny-scratchin'?), but that was a very good post.

I'm glad you made it, as I figured it would involve me into another discussion from which there would be no escape. I also don't think I would have said it as well as you did.

To base Christianity on "some" Christians is to base the culture of others on a "group" rather than the whole (i.e. terrorists, criminals, gangsters, thugs, unemployed, famous, etc).

Base Christianity on Christ ... heck, the name's right in the title. Simple.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"Eskimo, Christians, Italian--O lies!" (Say it aloud, fast.)

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Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.