I think this belongs in the Lavendar room :-). As for the population distribution you are aware of the massive amounts of Han Chinese "immigrants" to Tibet? I think you need to go back to the "pre occupation" distribution for a fair view.

No comment on the protests....like you said, there are 2 sides...its not like the US, France, Japan or Canada or any developed economy is immune from having treaded on a variety of groups through their collective history...

Dev

LR material this is, but Canada's Human Rights record is spotless. Just ask the first nations folks or the Acadians.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

No opinion on the protests - but I do feel bad for the girl that backed out of carrying the torch because she and her family were worried about her safety. Protesting is one thing (and I will say that those who climbed up on the Golden Gate with the signs have some big brass ba%#s) but attacking the torch bearer to put out the flame is another.

view from the economist.com:

http://www.economist.com/...3821&top_story=1

I'm inclined to blow the torch out myself, however protesting China about Tibet is like criticizing Bush for his choice of ties.

Before China took away the autonomy in 1959, Tibet was a slave state run by a few nobles and ruled by a bunch of monks. Infant mortality was around half and the average lifespan was 35. All of that is much different now - infant mortality less than one percent, lifespans in the 60s, highways and schools everywhere. Tibet is at the forefront of China's efforts to modernize it's rural regions. Even the Dali Lama acknowledges this continued improvement, himself asking that Tibet remain a part of China - only one with a little more autonomy.

However, Tibet now suffers from the same thing everyone else in China does - a tyrannical, American liberal Democrat government that thinks it can best organize the economy (Great Leap Forward = 20 million dead) and stifles religious freedom and political dissent with the same brutality of an Ivy League university.

Yet all of this smug focus is on Tibet alone. It seems that if China returned autonomy to the region, everyone would just forget about the hell that living in a communist state can be.

I just saw a news article about Chinese troops shooting monks in Tibet. The protests are bothering me less after that.

How far should we go back while remaining fair to the current occupants?
Pre-occupation, that's a few generations back at least. It might suck a bit for those immigrants don't you think?

Imagine if the US was returned to the native americans... that's a lot of displaced innocents.

There's really no simple solution to this mess, but wreaking havoc on torch bearing athletes is definitely not one.

My only request is to keep an open mind and don't be too quick to judge.

I say the same thing to certain non-American friends who have a negative view of Americans from reading news articles about US troops raping girls in Japan.

I can already feel the outpouring of smug, self-righteousness from the groups mobilizing to protest in San Francisco

...and we can feel the contrarian, knee-jerk reactionary, self righteousnes of the right wing internet heros. Poor you being rubbed the wrong way by people giving a shit. Whether you agree with 'em or not at least they're doing something and not whining to an internet forum.

Take it to the LR.

Don't necessarily have an opinion on the protests, because even if I don't agree they have a right to Protest (peacefully). However what does rub me the wrong way is politicians and others suggested we should boycott the opening ceremony or worse the whole event. The only people that will hurt are the athletes who have focused much of their adult lives on the event. If you want to make a statement, then stop importing or buying so many Chinese products. But don't make your protest via a boycott on the back of the athletes.

Thank you for making my point.

You must think that you're the only one who gives a shit and that the act of displaying how much you 'care', regardless of its impact on others, is the most important thing. Good for you.

But I do apologize for putting this in the wrong forum.

The bottom line is that China was a very bad choice for the 2008 Olympics to begin with.

The protesters have the right to protest as long as it remains peaceful. Thank God for that. Imagine a world where protesting against government policy was prohibited. Oh, such a place does exist - it's called China.

I agree in what they are protesting against, but unlike the Viet Nam protests of my youth, I'm now getting too old to be walking around carrying a sign. But they have my moral support.

I wouldn't like to see the Olympics boycotted, but the openning ceremonies could be another thing.

Move it to the L.R.

I couldnt care less about tibetians or protesters... unless they're riding cervelos or trying to pass me in the finishing chute.

now go away.

I see it along the lines of, hey, China wants to be thought of as a civilized nation, and a civilized nation allows for non-violent freedom of expression among its citizens when they do not agree with government leadership.

I don't want to see boycotts. It's not fair to the athletes. But I will think better of any athletes who show up on the medals platforms with 'Free Tibet' stickers slapped over their warm-ups.

I'm sorry, I thought you were the one responding to a thread I started. I'll just mosey on out now.

oh wait...

I think:

1. They olympics should be free of politics, its for the athletes who trained long and hard to get there
2. The torch is a symbol of the olympics not of china... let it be
3. let me run up and jump you while you're representing your country in a once in a lifetime activity.
4. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of crap you could do in your own neighborhood to make it better... quit knocking others until you have yourself straight.

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-Jason

I believe cars are the new second hand smoke. -Dave Zabriskie

my problem with it is that a lot of those people who profess "to giving a shit" quickly disappear when the cameras and attention are gone.

Where was all this anger and outrage 2-3 weeks ago? Where will it be when the torch is gone?

I think the "smug, self-righteous groups" that the OP is referring to are those that are simply taking advantage of the photo-op the torch provides.

In my opinion, if you want protest - then protest - but do something more than disrupt the route of the olympic torch. My guess is that there aren't a whole lot Rachel Corrie's in the crowds protesting today in SF, and if given the opportunity to take up their protest outside of the relative safety of the US...most would find a reason to not be so committed to the cause.

How about 10yrs ago when the decision to have the games in Beijing was made? It's not like we just discovered the games were in China this year...

As someone who ran with the torch...and as has been said. These ignorant idiots are protesting to the wrong people and making victims out of folks who are trying to do something that is huge - carry the olympic torch. Add to that - you really think that anyone in China is hearing anything about these protests? They may as well protest into a shoe box and yell at the moon...same outcome, only less victims.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Before everyone continues to get worked up about the "Olympic torch".... check out the history behind it ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Flame

GODDAMN IT! This is why I don't go to the LR... it just gets my blood pressure up. Anyway... since I am getting sucked into this.

FWIW... Most of the protesters are Tibetans living in the US. Most of the counter protesters are Chinese Americans or Chinese living in the US. I have no idea about what the deal was in Paris or London... and again - I really don't give a shit. Probably had more to do with China's role in Darfur than anything else...

Protesting the torch isn't going to stop the Olympics, but it is making China uncomfortable that *it's* Olympics are being seen as "controversial"... whatever that means. If they boycott the ceremony or any part of it it'll be a real shame, but I hope no one is seriously considering that.

Whining about the protesters to triathletes will accomplish even less. I have no use for hippies that run around wearing hemp and protesting everything in sight but, hey - it's a free country. As long as I can't see 'em from my back yard who the hell cares.

Ok... I am out. I mean it this time. Please let me spend my oh-so valuable time reading really important things like Dr. Coggan and Dr. Day going back and forth about Power Cranks. :-)

The Olympics have always been about politics. The hosting nations have always used the Olympics as political means. Berlin 1936, Munich 1972, Moscow 1980....

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-cj

And yet you have a blog called 'imperialtriathlete'?

Imperial actually refers to a mall I used to hangout at. Sorry, if thats a bit anti-climatic.