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9 watts article
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"Savings from a wheelset, tires, chain lube, ceramic bearings, aero helmet and the like are usually more like 2 or 3 watts, assuming the tech is a real success. Replacing a pair of butyl tubes in your tires with a pair of latex tubes – if you’re not running tubeless – is worth 2 to 3 watts tops."


Savings from a wheelset is only 2 or 3 watts?

Aero helmet saves only 2 or 3 watts?

I thought those two items were major aero upgrades.

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Re: 9 watts article [geoffreydean] [ In reply to ]
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What article is that from ?
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Re: 9 watts article [geoffreydean] [ In reply to ]
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geoffreydean wrote:
"Savings from a wheelset, tires, chain lube, ceramic bearings, aero helmet and the like are usually more like 2 or 3 watts, assuming the tech is a real success. Replacing a pair of butyl tubes in your tires with a pair of latex tubes – if you’re not running tubeless – is worth 2 to 3 watts tops."


Savings from a wheelset is only 2 or 3 watts?

Aero helmet saves only 2 or 3 watts?

I thought those two items were major aero upgrades.

I’m assuming Dan means upgrading from one high end aero wheelset or helmet to the newer and better wheelset or helmet. That would be the appropriate comparison for that article

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Re: 9 watts article [geoffreydean] [ In reply to ]
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geoffreydean wrote:
"Savings from a wheelset, tires, chain lube, ceramic bearings, aero helmet and the like are usually more like 2 or 3 watts, assuming the tech is a real success. Replacing a pair of butyl tubes in your tires with a pair of latex tubes – if you’re not running tubeless – is worth 2 to 3 watts tops."


Savings from a wheelset is only 2 or 3 watts?

Aero helmet saves only 2 or 3 watts?

I thought those two items were major aero upgrades.

I wouldn't be surprised. It's always amazed me how companies whose whole premis is aero provide zero data to back up their claims or comparisons against the competition
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Re: 9 watts article [geoffreydean] [ In reply to ]
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geoffreydean wrote:
"Savings from a wheelset, tires, chain lube, ceramic bearings, aero helmet and the like are usually more like 2 or 3 watts, assuming the tech is a real success. Replacing a pair of butyl tubes in your tires with a pair of latex tubes – if you’re not running tubeless – is worth 2 to 3 watts tops."

Savings from a wheelset is only 2 or 3 watts?
Aero helmet saves only 2 or 3 watts?
I thought those two items were major aero upgrades.

they're all major upgrades but how major depends on upgrading from what to what. canyon isn't claiming that their new speedmax takes 9 fewer watts to pedal at the same speed as your schwinn varsity, but it's a 9w savings over the bike that's won the last few hawaiian ironmans. so...

aero wheels don't save 2 or 3 watts over non-aero wheels. apples-to-apples would be: how much do you gain with the zipp 858 over the 808? it's like that.

aero helmet. again, we're not talking aero helmet versus skid lid, but the latest aero helmet over the aero helmet that came before it, or a reasonably aero general use road helmet. we're not talking a super duper space aged chain lube over a dry chain, but over an appropriately lubricated chain lube. ceramic bearings versus versus what would go in a reasonably high-end derailleur. real world upgrades.

now, latex tubes, this is going to get me into the dutch. but again, it depends on what butyl tubes we're talking about. this is a race application. when BRR tested this, i think what they found is that we're looking at a 2w savings, maybe 3w, maybe 4w? over a typical race application butyl tube. like a conti race. if i'm wrong and somebody has the link to that test (from maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) please disabuse me of my error.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
geoffreydean wrote:
"Savings from a wheelset, tires, chain lube, ceramic bearings, aero helmet and the like are usually more like 2 or 3 watts, assuming the tech is a real success. Replacing a pair of butyl tubes in your tires with a pair of latex tubes – if you’re not running tubeless – is worth 2 to 3 watts tops."

Savings from a wheelset is only 2 or 3 watts?
Aero helmet saves only 2 or 3 watts?
I thought those two items were major aero upgrades.


they're all major upgrades but how major depends on upgrading from what to what. canyon isn't claiming that their new speedmax takes 9 fewer watts to pedal at the same speed as your schwinn varsity, but it's a 9w savings over the bike that's won the last few hawaiian ironmans. so...

aero wheels don't save 2 or 3 watts over non-aero wheels. apples-to-apples would be: how much do you gain with the zipp 858 over the 808? it's like that.

aero helmet. again, we're not talking aero helmet versus skid lid, but the latest aero helmet over the aero helmet that came before it, or a reasonably aero general use road helmet. we're not talking a super duper space aged chain lube over a dry chain, but over an appropriately lubricated chain lube. ceramic bearings versus versus what would go in a reasonably high-end derailleur. real world upgrades.

now, latex tubes, this is going to get me into the dutch. but again, it depends on what butyl tubes we're talking about. this is a race application. when BRR tested this, i think what they found is that we're looking at a 2w savings, maybe 3w, maybe 4w? over a typical race application butyl tube. like a conti race. if i'm wrong and somebody has the link to that test (from maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) please disabuse me of my error.


So why do you compare aero helmet to aero helmet but then compare latex to butyl? Aero helmet to aero helmet is like latex to ____ [latex].
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Dec 2, 20 11:45
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:


they're all major upgrades but how major depends on upgrading from what to what. canyon isn't claiming that their new speedmax takes 9 fewer watts to pedal at the same speed as your schwinn varsity, but it's a 9w savings over the bike that's won the last few hawaiian ironmans. so...

So what are they really saying-that the old Canyon was slow, that if they had this new bike in 2018 and 19 they would have bridged the gap? The bike that won the last few Hawaiian ironman's wasnt a Canyon, Wurf on a Pinnarelo and Keinle on a Scott in 2019 and IN 2018 Wurf again and Weiss on a Diamondback. So is the new bike faster than the competition, or just faster than their old model? Is the new model still slower than the competition, by how much?

And this is what frustrates me-how much is marketing spin. Why cant they show how a product compares to the competition...?
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Re: 9 watts article [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Slowman wrote:


they're all major upgrades but how major depends on upgrading from what to what. canyon isn't claiming that their new speedmax takes 9 fewer watts to pedal at the same speed as your schwinn varsity, but it's a 9w savings over the bike that's won the last few hawaiian ironmans. so...

So what are they really saying-that the old Canyon was slow, that if they had this new bike in 2018 and 19 they would have bridged the gap? The bike that won the last few Hawaiian ironman's wasnt a Canyon, Wurf on a Pinnarelo and Keinle on a Scott in 2019 and IN 2018 Wurf again and Weiss on a Diamondback. So is the new bike faster than the competition, or just faster than their old model? Is the new model still slower than the competition, by how much?

And this is what frustrates me-how much is marketing spin. Why cant they show how a product compares to the competition...?

Wurf won IM Hawaii??

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Re: 9 watts article [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Slowman wrote:


they're all major upgrades but how major depends on upgrading from what to what. canyon isn't claiming that their new speedmax takes 9 fewer watts to pedal at the same speed as your schwinn varsity, but it's a 9w savings over the bike that's won the last few hawaiian ironmans. so...


So what are they really saying-that the old Canyon was slow, that if they had this new bike in 2018 and 19 they would have bridged the gap? The bike that won the last few Hawaiian ironman's wasnt a Canyon, Wurf on a Pinnarelo and Keinle on a Scott in 2019 and IN 2018 Wurf again and Weiss on a Diamondback. So is the new bike faster than the competition, or just faster than their old model? Is the new model still slower than the competition, by how much?

And this is what frustrates me-how much is marketing spin. Why cant they show how a product compares to the competition...?

there's a thread on slowtwitch right now on a crowdfunded mega test, like we did before. it's a big lift. lotsa money. hard to do. brands used to do this a lot, not as often anymore. they'd test their bikes against all the competitors. not as frequent now.

the very bike that was "9 watts slower" was the bike ridden by the male winners of the Hawaiian Ironman WC every year from 2015 thru 2019. that's 5 years running. no, those winners didn't have the fastest bike splits, but you don't get the wreath at the finish line for fastest split. only for winning the race.

you are free to think what you want. buy what you want. believe what you want. my intention is not to convince you. just to report to you, and if that helps you make a decision, my job is done! in point of fact, there are more than 250 bike brands represented on the pier at kona, so there's a pretty splintered field, but canyon is preferred by 1-in-4 slowtwitchers, as regards the next tri bike they'll purchase. so, they must be making some good decisions, as a brand.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

there's a thread on slowtwitch right now on a crowdfunded mega test, like we did before. it's a big lift. lotsa money. hard to do. brands used to do this a lot, not as often anymore. they'd test their bikes against all the competitors. not as frequent now.

the very bike that was "9 watts slower" was the bike ridden by the male winners of the Hawaiian Ironman WC every year from 2015 thru 2019. that's 5 years running. no, those winners didn't have the fastest bike splits, but you don't get the wreath at the finish line for fastest split. only for winning the race.

you are free to think what you want. buy what you want. believe what you want. my intention is not to convince you. just to report to you, and if that helps you make a decision, my job is done! in point of fact, there are more than 250 bike brands represented on the pier at kona, so there's a pretty splintered field, but canyon is preferred by 1-in-4 slowtwitchers, as regards the next tri bike they'll purchase. so, they must be making some good decisions, as a brand.


That's the point though-without any reference to competitors bikes its kind of meaningless-sure Frodo won on a Canyon, but he may have won by a even greater margin on a competitors bike, especially if based on the new model he could have been riding with at least a 9 watt penalty.

I'd imagine if many of the field rode 5+ year old P5's they would be more than 9 watts faster..
Last edited by: dunno: Dec 1, 20 18:08
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
now, latex tubes, this is going to get me into the dutch. but again, it depends on what butyl tubes we're talking about. this is a race application. when BRR tested this, i think what they found is that we're looking at a 2w savings, maybe 3w, maybe 4w? over a typical race application butyl tube. like a conti race. if i'm wrong and somebody has the link to that test (from maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) please disabuse me of my error.

Probably a better source:


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Re: 9 watts article [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Slowman wrote:


there's a thread on slowtwitch right now on a crowdfunded mega test, like we did before. it's a big lift. lotsa money. hard to do. brands used to do this a lot, not as often anymore. they'd test their bikes against all the competitors. not as frequent now.

the very bike that was "9 watts slower" was the bike ridden by the male winners of the Hawaiian Ironman WC every year from 2015 thru 2019. that's 5 years running. no, those winners didn't have the fastest bike splits, but you don't get the wreath at the finish line for fastest split. only for winning the race.

you are free to think what you want. buy what you want. believe what you want. my intention is not to convince you. just to report to you, and if that helps you make a decision, my job is done! in point of fact, there are more than 250 bike brands represented on the pier at kona, so there's a pretty splintered field, but canyon is preferred by 1-in-4 slowtwitchers, as regards the next tri bike they'll purchase. so, they must be making some good decisions, as a brand.


That's the point though-without any reference to competitors bikes its kind of meaningless-sure Frodo won on a Canyon, but he may have won by a even greater margin on a competitors bike, especially if based on the new model he could have been riding with at least a 9 watt penalty.

I'd imagine if many of the field rode 5+ year old P5's they would be more than 9 watts faster..

what we used to do was try to piece tests together. diamondback tests its bike against cervelo, cervelo against felt and trek, trek against specialized and orbea, and then we take all the relative positions of the bikes and hack them altogether into something barely believable but at least it's data. maybe junk data, but in the land of the blind the one-eyed data is king.

for whatever reason we don't see as much of that in recent years. it's more, "this is how much faster our bike was than our old bike." cervelo and canyon both do this. maybe that's meaningful, maybe it's not. it you put jan frodeno "9 watts up the road" in kona, then he's finishing the bike 3min faster? but the bike rides are pretty tactical. so, maybe he doesn't ride any faster and he just runs faster. i don't know. i only report the news. just, as to those old P5s you mentioned, as i noted, cervelo says the new P5 discs are faster.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 9 watts article [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
now, latex tubes, this is going to get me into the dutch. but again, it depends on what butyl tubes we're talking about. this is a race application. when BRR tested this, i think what they found is that we're looking at a 2w savings, maybe 3w, maybe 4w? over a typical race application butyl tube. like a conti race. if i'm wrong and somebody has the link to that test (from maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) please disabuse me of my error.


Probably a better source:


thank you. very comprehensive test. it's also a very recent test if it includes the schwalbe. so, can i switch gears and ask you what you think of that tube? because i have some, and they seem extremely robust compared to the vittoria latex tubes i have. have you formed an opinion about that schwalbe tube?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 9 watts article [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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The bike that won the last few Hawaiian ironman's wasnt a Canyon, Wurf on a Pinnarelo and Keinle on a Scott in 2019 and IN 2018 Wurf again and Weiss on a Diamondback.” I am pretty sure a bike has never won Kona- bikes don’t swim or run very well.
I an always amused when people assume that when a given athlete rides the fastest it is because of their bike. Is it possible it could be because it was the best athlete on that day?
Like many on this forum, I have a go to training route with no traffic stops and very limited traffic, and often do test time trials, 11 miles out and back. I have done this route literally hundreds of times, on a wide variety of TT and road bikes, with a large variation in wheels, including disk, tires, tubes, helmets, etc. I have seen very little variation between bikes, or wheels, but very noticeable differences with tires, tubes, tire pressure and my riding position.
As Lance said- it’s not about the bike!
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Re: 9 watts article [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
The bike that won the last few Hawaiian ironman's wasnt a Canyon, Wurf on a Pinnarelo and Keinle on a Scott in 2019 and IN 2018 Wurf again and Weiss on a Diamondback.” I am pretty sure a bike has never won Kona- bikes don’t swim or run very well.
I an always amused when people assume that when a given athlete rides the fastest it is because of their bike. Is it possible it could be because it was the best athlete on that day?
Like many on this forum, I have a go to training route with no traffic stops and very limited traffic, and often do test time trials, 11 miles out and back. I have done this route literally hundreds of times, on a wide variety of TT and road bikes, with a large variation in wheels, including disk, tires, tubes, helmets, etc. I have seen very little variation between bikes, or wheels, but very noticeable differences with tires, tubes, tire pressure and my riding position.
As Lance said- it’s not about the bike!

Soooo you are agreeing with me that the distinction that the winner of the last 4 or so Hawaii Ironmans rode Canyons doesn't mean that much?
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
now, latex tubes, this is going to get me into the dutch. but again, it depends on what butyl tubes we're talking about. this is a race application. when BRR tested this, i think what they found is that we're looking at a 2w savings, maybe 3w, maybe 4w? over a typical race application butyl tube. like a conti race. if i'm wrong and somebody has the link to that test (from maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) please disabuse me of my error.


Probably a better source:



thank you. very comprehensive test. it's also a very recent test if it includes the schwalbe. so, can i switch gears and ask you what you think of that tube? because i have some, and they seem extremely robust compared to the vittoria latex tubes i have. have you formed an opinion about that schwalbe
tube?


My partner and I have over 20,000 miles combined between us on Vittoria Latex and Conti 5000 23mm. Only 1 flat in the wild with that combo. I think it has proven to be very robust for us. I wanted to add this data point. I can’t comment on the Schwalbe, though.
Last edited by: wetswimmer99: Dec 1, 20 19:48
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As I told you in the comments to that article right after it came out, you’re off by a factor of 2 on the butyl to latex difference. It’s not “2-3 watts tops” for a pair, but for each wheel. Look at that Aerocoach chart again.

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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
thank you. very comprehensive test. it's also a very recent test if it includes the schwalbe. so, can i switch gears and ask you what you think of that tube? because i have some, and they seem extremely robust compared to the vittoria latex tubes i have. have you formed an opinion about that schwalbe tube?

No, I've been using Vittoria and Michelin latex tubes and I'm happy with both. No experience with the Schwalbe plastic tubes, but they claim greater puncture resistance, and better air retention than latex.

One thing I like about latex is the ability to apparently conform around sharp objects like wires, staples, thorns, etc. More often than not if I stop and pull the object out, the tube will be fine. Very good pinch flat resistance too. Don't think the plastic tubes would do that, but they might be tougher in a different manner.
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sure they are making good marketing decisions. That doesn't mean their bikes are faster (or slower). Triathlon is the new golf in terms of a marketing professional's dream. Only the audience is much smaller.

99% of the claims made about gains are either out of scope for John doe (as the drive that is better at 350m shots) within the error margin, or both. i.e. are irrelevant in terms of performance. I guess that was largely proven in the age of peak aero study.

Nowadays I buy stuff because it looks cool, and that makes me feel good. That's enough for me.
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As others have mentioned, those wins don't show that Canyon was a fast bike. It just proves the SLX was good enough for the winners, i.e. not a parachute. Frodo could have won on a Madone with TT bars, for all we know. Maybe go faster on a P5. Who knows.

The people who claim they have tested the old Canyon have posted on ST that it was slow. So I also wonder whether 9W makes it faster or just equal to the P5, SC, etc.

The 1-4 preference by slowtwitchers has a lot more to do with Canyon's price point than aero performance.

The new bike is amazing. Integration is next level and aero is finally in superbike league. Pricing still strong but not as much as before. Will be interesting to see how sales will go with the higher price points. Too bad they've made it so darn tall, though.
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Re: 9 watts article [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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That last quote keeps me wondering what was it about then in his case? ;-)
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Re: 9 watts article [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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BigBoyND wrote:
As others have mentioned, those wins don't show that Canyon was a fast bike. It just proves the SLX was good enough for the winners, i.e. not a parachute. Frodo could have won on a Madone with TT bars, for all we know. Maybe go faster on a P5. Who knows.

The people who claim they have tested the old Canyon have posted on ST that it was slow. So I also wonder whether 9W makes it faster or just equal to the P5, SC, etc.

The 1-4 preference by slowtwitchers has a lot more to do with Canyon's price point than aero performance.

The new bike is amazing. Integration is next level and aero is finally in superbike league. Pricing still strong but not as much as before. Will be interesting to see how sales will go with the higher price points. Too bad they've made it so darn tall, though.

It may not show that the Canyon was the fastest bike, but it's not a pig either. Remember when Crowie switched from the old Orbea to a fast bike? I don't think that it's possible to win Kona on bad equipment. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it still has to be good.

Canyon has held a couple of hour records (Dowsett, Sanders) multiple Kona wins. It's not holding anyone back.

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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
aero helmet. again, we're not talking aero helmet versus skid lid, but the latest aero helmet over the aero helmet that came before it, or a reasonably aero general use road helmet.

I'd say helmets may matter more. If they come out with (or someone uncovers) something new that happens to fit your body position better.......a new TT helmet might be significantly faster than your 3 year old TT helmet.

Not 2 or 3 watts. More like 7 in the flats and 10 to 12 downhill. I have data for myself along these lines in that forum topic on here about helmet testing.
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Re: 9 watts article [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Slowman wrote:
thank you. very comprehensive test. it's also a very recent test if it includes the schwalbe. so, can i switch gears and ask you what you think of that tube? because i have some, and they seem extremely robust compared to the vittoria latex tubes i have. have you formed an opinion about that schwalbe tube?


No, I've been using Vittoria and Michelin latex tubes and I'm happy with both. No experience with the Schwalbe plastic tubes, but they claim greater puncture resistance, and better air retention than latex.

One thing I like about latex is the ability to apparently conform around sharp objects like wires, staples, thorns, etc. More often than not if I stop and pull the object out, the tube will be fine. Very good pinch flat resistance too. Don't think the plastic tubes would do that, but they might be tougher in a different manner.

i figured that's what would make latex faster, the ability to conform. it seemed to me the fact that schwalbe's tubes tested so well, they must exhibit that same capacity. but i don't know.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 9 watts article [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

how much info did they give you on how they got to that 9w. Was it a straight wind tunnel test with rider at varying yaw ?

Some brands are pretty creative at getting to big numbers. Not saying Canyon did this, but other brands do.
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