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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Froome's other questionable stuff aside

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Thanks for all the great comments on the stage today. I've really enjoyed watching Yates' team's youtube videos daily usually 8-10 min segments. Tonight's episode is going to be painful to watch I'm sure.




Now regards to Froome. What is the verdict on this result if his issue is upheld? Does he lose it, or does he only start the ban once decision is final (assuming he loses the Vuelta title)?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
Remember Froome lost almost a minute to Tom on stage 15 after going deep to win on the Zonc. I think Froome has better form this week, but I would give a 50/50 he cracks tomorrow.

Froome is a 4X TDF winner, TD is a 1X Giro winner. He knows how to defend a lead, I don't see him giving up 40 sec to TD tomorrow. I put his chances at losing the jersey to TD at more like 5% or less. Like I said, I'm not a Froome fan at all, but we've all seen how this plays out many times over.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Froome's other questionable stuff aside

----------

Thanks for all the great comments on the stage today. I've really enjoyed watching Yates' team's youtube videos daily usually 8-10 min segments. Tonight's episode is going to be painful to watch I'm sure.




Now regards to Froome. What is the verdict on this result if his issue is upheld? Does he lose it, or does he only start the ban once decision is final (assuming he loses the Vuelta title)?

It will be a painful watch. I felt really bad for Simon today.

That aside this whole stage was outrageous. One of the most entertaining I have ever witnessed.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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The cynic / realist in me thinks this is a bit too Landis-esque.

Don't drown. Don't crash. Don't walk.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [rotosound] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the same. Jaw dropping solo win. Can't wait to see some analysis of what the hell he was pushing. He better buy some pints for his boy's work today.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Froome's other questionable stuff aside

----------

Thanks for all the great comments on the stage today. I've really enjoyed watching Yates' team's youtube videos daily usually 8-10 min segments. Tonight's episode is going to be painful to watch I'm sure.




Now regards to Froome. What is the verdict on this result if his issue is upheld? Does he lose it, or does he only start the ban once decision is final (assuming he loses the Vuelta title)?

He keeps the Giro but would loose the Vuelta, or so says the UCI. Interestingly, he could also win the TDF and keep that as well which will likely happen as a descision does not appear immenent.

On a side note this is a really interesting case from a biochemistry standpoint. I have a good friend who works for a pharm company as a biochemist and specializes in drug dosing. In particular how long does a drug last in ones system and how your body responds to said drug. Anyways, the primary takeaway i had from that conversation is that there is a high degree of variability in the rate of metabolism of different drugs. Add in potential variances with testing proceducres and then the unique stree of a race senario and you have a lawyers field day ahead of you in the court room.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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somewhat... my wife worked in drug transport.. yes differences can occur but Sky would have known .. besides 2x the amount is fishy as hell.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
somewhat... my wife worked in drug transport.. yes differences can occur but Sky would have known .. besides 2x the amount is fishy as hell.

Not arguing any specific point, just suggesting that if i was a lawyer this would be rather fun. Yes 2x the limit either means a 1/1,000,000 biological abnormaility or he took a large dose to help get through his cold.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Ron_Burgundy wrote:
Add in potential variances with testing proceducres and then the unique stree of a race senario and you have a lawyers field day ahead of you in the court room.

Yeah, I had similar conversations about it with a buddy of mine who's a post-doc in pharmacology.

Because the CAS leans athlete-friendly when presented with confounding scientific data, I'm predicting little-to-no sanction for Froome. Which, with my Froome Derangement Syndrome, will constitute statutory justice, but not poetic justice.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
It was the perfect stage for Froome to go out on the attack, his team really would have done nothing for him anyway. First you have all that severe climbing which he is great at, especially when he just gets to ride his tempo. And then you have severe decents where he is likely one of the best if not the best at descending. He would have dropped any small groups there too, so really having his nose in the wind anyway.

So a smart and probably calculated weeks or months ago that this would be his day to just take off. The course rode like a very long tt anyway, and who is going to tt on up and down mountains with Froome at any time??

Froome seems to have had Zoncolan as day 1 of his virtual yearly Dauphine single week stage race, except he's doing that 1 week stage race in Italy this year. It's his proven formula to peak for the TdF by having a hard hit out several weeks before the TdF for a week. He paid the day after Zoncolan, and was steady on the TT and now seems to be peaking as he planned for this final weekend. I feel that with the gravel on Finistre and his mountain biking background, he had all this planned out long ago. What an awesome stage. Regardless of the Sky asthma train (or not), that was some seriously gutsy racing.

I think the calculation he made well was how well could he blow apart the entire peloton so that the entire race turned into an Eddy Merckx era line of single riders and more like a mountain bike race where everyone is in an ITT mode vs a road bike stage. Once everyone is in ITT mode then him being in ITT mode is no longer a disadvantage. The stage profile was conducive to effectively turn the race into more like an individual battle for all vs a few singles vs the peloton.

I can't wait to watch the rest of the stage tonite. I had to stop watching after the Finistre descent on account of work obligation !!!!
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
I thought the same. Jaw dropping solo win. Can't wait to see some analysis of what the hell he was pushing. He better buy some pints for his boy's work today.

When I watched Froome make the intial gap on Yates (you can see my comments on this thread as it happened), I was joking that it was a Floyd like day. But realistically, he just blew the race apart and forced everyone into ITT mode for 80K. Seriously at the end of the day he beat Dumoulin by 3+ min over 2.5 hours on a mountain day that favours Froome with lots of gravel and technical descending. That does not seem like an outrageous margin for two riders who are similarly matched but with one being the stronger climber.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks,

If I recall correctly... In 2011 Cantador had the pink jersey on the last day of the Giro and on that day anyone would have said that he "won the Giro". The problem was that he had a doping issue (clenbuterol positive test from 2010 TdF) that was roiling in the courts. Later the CAS stripped him of that Grio win.

I haven't been following Froome's inhaler drama that closely but it seems evident that he (they?) abused the TUE system. Froome's situation could be seen as very similar to Contador's at the start of the 2011 Giro. I haven't let it bother me at all because Froome was sitting 7th on GC and Yates was looking great, and the defending champ was 2nd, and Pozzovio (who just looks so wrong on a bike) was 3rd, and life was grand.

Now I'm super torn. What I saw today - a guy going solo for 80k to win the stage, take the leaders jersey (the climbers jersey too, 'cause why not) it was so magical. But now were in a place where the dark cloud will be discussed nearly as much as the amazing day. And then there's an even worse part: Froome will likely hold off Dumoulin and win. And now we'll all wait for the investigation to end - which might even be after the Tour - and Froome might get stripped of this Giro win and all the others will bump up a slot on paper but they will have missed the champagne, lipstick smudges, etc. etc.

Some would argue that Froome shouldn't have been allowed to start. But then what if he's cleared of this issue and now we've got a guy who's won the TdF 4x, won the Vuelta 1x and deserves his Giro win to move him up on the list of true greats.

It's not as clear as we'd all like

Ian

PS. I really think we've haven't seen anything like this since Floyd, Stage 17 TdF 2006. As a reminder: Stages 7,8,9 Floyd is 2nd on GC +1min. Stage 10 he slips to 4th +4:45. Stage 11 he takes the Yellow, keeps it for Stage 12, slips to 2nd on Stage 13, holds 2nd Stage 14. Back into Yellow on Stage 15. On Stage 16 he plummets to 11th on GC over 8 minutes down. The next day, Floyd goes 120k solo over 4 mountains include Colombiere and the Joux-Plane - wins, takes back Yellow. What a great day. As it would happen, Floyd pissed out a sample that was 3x the legal testosterone to epi ratio and all the greatness of that day is erased.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Pffft!

Pantani says both Froome and Landis are soft.

....wasn’t even raining!

Maurice
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Really wished the Giro was carried on Directv! Ain't one for 'streaming' quit yet. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Hey, have a look at what I posted on a few posts on this thread. Given that Froome made up vs Dumoulin and moreso how much time on the descents on this stage (I think I added it up to 1:40 of the 3ish minutes he made on Dumoulin), I don't think that this performance was anymore "not normal" than the chasers. His attack on Finistre was just marginally faster than Dumoulin....so if you look at it from the doping angle, he does not appear to be any dirtier nor cleaner than Dumoulin and Pinot. Dumoulin and Pinot crested Finistre only 30+ seconds slower than Froome and that included Dumoulin waiting for Pinot's broken spoke induced wheel change. On the final climb of the day, Froome's lead was initially shrinking on the lower slopes and then he managed to get some of the shrink back. Dumoulin was gased at the end, but for this weight vs Froome's the performances of both men were largely in line given that Froome made a ton of the gap on the descents.

What's not normal is Froome rolling the dice and trying to blow things apart 80K out, but yesterday I said that he would use the gravel and technical descent to his advantage. I really think that Froome thought the tactics through well in advance and then optimized the execution on the tricky terrain.

I don't think this one is anywhere in the Floyd 2006 category, simply because Froome was not much better than the chasers on the climbs....just a touch better, but come on, he's always been a better climber than Dumoulin and Pinot. It's not like he was dropping a fully peaked Nario Quintana or full juiced Marco Pantani.

Yates should have been the escapee with Froome today, but he burnt out his legs earlier with too much too often.

Everyone looking at how "not normal" today was needs to look at how "not normal" Froome's descents and technical skills were. Almost (or maybe beyond) the category of "Il Falco" Paolo Salvodelli. In 2005 it was on the same Finistre decent to Sestriere that Salvodelli closed the gap to Simoni for the Giro win. Everyone is forgetting about how much time a good descender going solo without other riders in the way can make up on this descent. I've been waiting for this stage to see what impact this climb and descent would have and was not dissappointed.

Now having said, that, Sky could be doped to the same level or slightly more than Scott, Sunweb, Bahrain, Emirates etc. I just don't think that Froome's performance is eyebrow raising from a relative watts per kilo vs his chasers. It was barely marginally better based on rates of climb that were not that different.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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ppl keep bringing up the descents like it's battle of just coasting down them..if you take the doping angle as you say...well the dope is going to help you downhill too.. aint it. Yeah there is bike handling and what not, but Froome was clearly shown peddling on the downhill.. and hitting the pedals sitting on the downtube and all.

Besides I doubt he's doped right now.. I just dont think he should even be racing.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Hey, have a look at what I posted on a few posts on this thread. Given that Froome made up vs Dumoulin and moreso how much time on the descents on this stage (I think I added it up to 1:40 of the 3ish minutes he made on Dumoulin), I don't think that this performance was anymore "not normal" than the chasers. His attack on Finistre was just marginally faster than Dumoulin....so if you look at it from the doping angle, he does not appear to be any dirtier nor cleaner than Dumoulin and Pinot. Dumoulin and Pinot crested Finistre only 30+ seconds slower than Froome and that included Dumoulin waiting for Pinot's broken spoke induced wheel change. On the final climb of the day, Froome's lead was initially shrinking on the lower slopes and then he managed to get some of the shrink back. Dumoulin was gased at the end, but for this weight vs Froome's the performances of both men were largely in line given that Froome made a ton of the gap on the descents.

What's not normal is Froome rolling the dice and trying to blow things apart 80K out, but yesterday I said that he would use the gravel and technical descent to his advantage. I really think that Froome thought the tactics through well in advance and then optimized the execution on the tricky terrain.

I don't think this one is anywhere in the Floyd 2006 category, simply because Froome was not much better than the chasers on the climbs....just a touch better, but come on, he's always been a better climber than Dumoulin and Pinot. It's not like he was dropping a fully peaked Nario Quintana or full juiced Marco Pantani.

Yates should have been the escapee with Froome today, but he burnt out his legs earlier with too much too often.

Everyone looking at how "not normal" today was needs to look at how "not normal" Froome's descents and technical skills were. Almost (or maybe beyond) the category of "Il Falco" Paolo Salvodelli. In 2005 it was on the same Finistre decent to Sestriere that Salvodelli closed the gap to Simoni for the Giro win. Everyone is forgetting about how much time a good descender going solo without other riders in the way can make up on this descent. I've been waiting for this stage to see what impact this climb and descent would have and was not dissappointed.

Now having said, that, Sky could be doped to the same level or slightly more than Scott, Sunweb, Bahrain, Emirates etc. I just don't think that Froome's performance is eyebrow raising from a relative watts per kilo vs his chasers. It was barely marginally better based on rates of climb that were not that different.

I think a lot of his strategy was to get out in front by himself on the descents and make up the time there. It's so much easier to haul ass down a mountain when there aren't 3-4 other guys you have to avoid.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [T3_Beer] [ In reply to ]
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T3_Beer wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Hey, have a look at what I posted on a few posts on this thread. Given that Froome made up vs Dumoulin and moreso how much time on the descents on this stage (I think I added it up to 1:40 of the 3ish minutes he made on Dumoulin), I don't think that this performance was anymore "not normal" than the chasers. His attack on Finistre was just marginally faster than Dumoulin....so if you look at it from the doping angle, he does not appear to be any dirtier nor cleaner than Dumoulin and Pinot. Dumoulin and Pinot crested Finistre only 30+ seconds slower than Froome and that included Dumoulin waiting for Pinot's broken spoke induced wheel change. On the final climb of the day, Froome's lead was initially shrinking on the lower slopes and then he managed to get some of the shrink back. Dumoulin was gased at the end, but for this weight vs Froome's the performances of both men were largely in line given that Froome made a ton of the gap on the descents.

What's not normal is Froome rolling the dice and trying to blow things apart 80K out, but yesterday I said that he would use the gravel and technical descent to his advantage. I really think that Froome thought the tactics through well in advance and then optimized the execution on the tricky terrain.

I don't think this one is anywhere in the Floyd 2006 category, simply because Froome was not much better than the chasers on the climbs....just a touch better, but come on, he's always been a better climber than Dumoulin and Pinot. It's not like he was dropping a fully peaked Nario Quintana or full juiced Marco Pantani.

Yates should have been the escapee with Froome today, but he burnt out his legs earlier with too much too often.

Everyone looking at how "not normal" today was needs to look at how "not normal" Froome's descents and technical skills were. Almost (or maybe beyond) the category of "Il Falco" Paolo Salvodelli. In 2005 it was on the same Finistre decent to Sestriere that Salvodelli closed the gap to Simoni for the Giro win. Everyone is forgetting about how much time a good descender going solo without other riders in the way can make up on this descent. I've been waiting for this stage to see what impact this climb and descent would have and was not dissappointed.

Now having said, that, Sky could be doped to the same level or slightly more than Scott, Sunweb, Bahrain, Emirates etc. I just don't think that Froome's performance is eyebrow raising from a relative watts per kilo vs his chasers. It was barely marginally better based on rates of climb that were not that different.


I think a lot of his strategy was to get out in front by himself on the descents and make up the time there. It's so much easier to haul ass down a mountain when there aren't 3-4 other guys you have to avoid.

I agree. His goal here was to thin it out in Finistre and safely take risks (if you can call it that) without having other riders cluttering the road. We seems to have made the most of that on each descent and rode the valleys and climbs fairly steady. He was not dramatically faster than Pinot+Dumoulin on the valleys and climbs today.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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agreed, it was a highly impressive ride, particularly for having the balls to try it at all. it was not incredible though given it was essentially man vs man.
thats one way this differs from landis who i believe basically rode away from the peloton. the other is that froome has shown over 6 years that he is pretty much the strongest gc type rider going so its no massive surprise to see him besting these guys. landis was a decent rider but not a standout champion except for that one day

i was hoping to see someone else win, as much for variety as anything against froome and his inhaler but really he has earned pink. he could yet pay for it tomorrow, though i doubt it with the team he has around him and everyone having suffered much the same today
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
it was not incredible

George Bennett doesn't agree. :)
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I saw that video and it cracked me up. Pure disbelief. I truly hope this shit is legit because I'm tired of being disappointed with the behavior in my sports. Time will tell.

There is also this:

"The adjective I'd use to describe Froome's performance is 'mostruoso' - monstrous. If I look at my watts and think I finished eight minutes down then he did a huge ride, something incredible," Pozzovivo said.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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turdburgler wrote:
I saw that video and it cracked me up. Pure disbelief. I truly hope this shit is legit because I'm tired of being disappointed with the behavior in my sports. Time will tell.

There is also this:

"The adjective I'd use to describe Froome's performance is 'mostruoso' - monstrous. If I look at my watts and think I finished eight minutes down then he did a huge ride, something incredible," Pozzovivo said.

I guess then the question is how did Carapez, Pinot, Lopez and Dumoulin finish ~3 min behind Froome of which only half was on the climbs and valleys...the rest of Froome's gap was on the descents. If Froome was superhuman, then minus Dumoulin who has proven he is on Froome's level, how did the rest of these guys pull off such miraculous rides? Froome's climbing gains over more climbing today, seems to be much less than what he did proportionally on Zoncolan. If Froome put say 90 seconds on these guy over the climbs and valleys on today's stage, that would be totally in line with what he can put on them during a TT of that length given that their cooperation was pretty piss poor.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ryan Mullen‏ @ryanmullen9 11h11 hours ago
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Today I did 300 watts average for 6 hours to finish 45 minutes behind the winner. Hahahahaha.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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We get it. You think it's normal. You've made your case.
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Re: 2018 Giro D’Italia- SPOILER ALERT [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
We get it. You think it's normal. You've made your case.

I did not say it is normal relative to the rest of the population or the rest of the peloton, I am saying its just as normal as Dumoulin, Pinot, Carapez, Lopez. So if we're going to pick on Froome, we need to pick on those guys too for doing a performance more or less in line with Froome given their own power to weight ratios and the terrain at hand.
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