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(TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other?
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Ok guys, I've got new shoes, and am playing around with cleat placement and saddle height to dial in the feel. I'm playing with saddle height, and I can get the height dialed in for one foot or the other, but not both. I've got a small leg length discrepency and maybe it's the fact that these shoes are better than what I used to have, but I can really feel the difference in leg lengths now. If one foot feels fine, the other pedal is either too close or too far away. The difference isn't huge, but it's absolutely noticeable, and is a source of stress on my knees. I'm assuming that the stiff carbon sole amplifies this effect - I felt it in my old road shoes,a nd even my MTB shoes, but it didn't bother me as much.

How do you adjust for leg length differentials? Are their shims or spacers to put between the sole and cleat? Tom (or any other good fitter) - is this something that you have experience in?
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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I just read Pain Free : A Revolutionary Method for Stopping Chronic Pain

by Peter Egoscue where he says that while most likely people think one leg is longer than the other, in reality it has more to do with your hips being out of place.

Doesn't answer your direct question. Feel free to ignore this if you are one of the extremely small minority who actually have one leg shorter than the other. It worked for me.

http://www.amazon.com/...=glance&n=283155
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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first figure out why your leg is shorter than the other. Is a femoral descrepancy, or is it a tibia fibia discrepancy? Is it a hip allignment issue?
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Orthotics.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Le Wedge make some good options. I hear these days a lot of folks go with custom orthodics however they can't solve everything with a insole.



http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1060



Gavin Nunns

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http://www.nunnsontherun.com
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [walnutcreek tri] [ In reply to ]
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True about people thinking one leg is longer. Most 'leg length' discrepencies are not actual differences in leg lenths, but merely 'effective' differences. Very few people actually measure equal in their leftside/right side biomechanical measurements. Most people have inequalities when you look at measure points such as inferior angles of the scapulae, posterior superior iliac spines, etc. Basically, most peoples shoulder blades and pelvic tilts are slightly askew, causing the feeling of a leg length discrepency. That said, though it may not be an actual difference, it is a effective (and biomechanically significant) difference.

For our purposes, on a bike, it's a leg length discrepency, and it affects the pressure and power output given unto each pedal. There's got to be a way to fix this. Adapter plates on the soles, like you'd find in alpine skiers? Varied height orthotic's might change the way the shoes fit, especially when you want the most snug fit possible on the inside.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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How can you tell if it is an actual leg length discrepancy or just a pelvic tilt?
I've been measured a bunch of times, and the distance from the bump of my left ankle to the hinge point of my left hip (i'm sure that these things have names, but i don't know them) is consistently a bit more than 1cm longer than the equivalent measurement on my right side. was in 93, still is now. I'm not saying that I'm above lowering my shoulder or tilting my pelvis from time to time, i just don't see how it would show up in those measurements.

-charles
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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I had a bike fitter show me that my legs were a little out of whack. It was about 10 mm and he guessed is was a little bit of hip problem and some in leg length. I mentioned that my right leg--the shorter limb--tended to pedal with much less heel drop than the left and that made sense given the discrepency. I stacked several LeWedges back to back to build it up 5mm under the right cleat and now both legs look more similar in their motion during the stroke. When I ran out of LeWedges on another cleat set so I just used pieces of thin package board to make up the difference.

Chad
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [urbanrider] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
How can you tell if it is an actual leg length discrepancy or just a pelvic tilt?


Have a professional (physio, kinesiologist, podiatrist, CAT, etc) do a biomechanical assessment. Stand with your back to them, and they'll locate the specific points on your pelvic girdle. It's actually quite easy to see, when you place your thumbs on the PSIS (posterior superior iliac spine). Most people will have a tilt, in conjunction with their dominant side. The muscles on one side of the body become more developed than the other, and essentially pull the pelvis and scapula together (ever so slightly).

You can also develop an effective leg length discrepency due to improper alignment of the lower legs, knee surgeries, etc.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I mentioned that my right leg--the shorter limb--tended to pedal with much less heel drop than the left and that made sense given the discrepency. I stacked several LeWedges back to back to build it up 5mm under the right cleat and now both legs look more similar in their motion during the stroke.
That's what I was wondering about - spacers, combined with longer cleat fixing bolts. Any fitters have any experience in this?
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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i have a 25 mm ( 1 ") discrepancy I was born with it & have always had to have a lift on my shoes. One hip is lower than the other & the same femur shorter as well. EVERY shoe & piece of sporting equipment has to be adjusted. So I deal with this all the time. I have done 11 IM (5x in IMH). I also have to be quite sensitive to any seemingly small biomechanic issues/problems to stay ahead of the injury/overuse issues that crop up. The right side of my body is more injury susceptible. I've had xrays etc to verify the discrepancy or when injurued and so far no arthritis!. I rarely walk without at least my right shoe on becasue I would limp if I did & its uncomfortable.

On the computrainer my left right with spin scan sis usually 48-51 split so my adjustment is working well.

I'm interested in knowing where I can get the adapter plates for the sole as you mentioned. I've never been able to find them. I have an additional plat under my binding but then I can't demo skiis which I want to do.

The general suggestion is one shims about 50-80% of their discrepancy but that hasn't worked for me & I am at almost all of mine as I gotten older (now in my 50's). I find with skking I have noticible improved mobility, functionality with 22mm +. Last year after meeting another person with a similar discrepancy at IMH I modified the way my run shoes are done so the lift goes across the entire bottom of the run shoe as opposed to a tapered lift and the biomechanics are so much better. I have my run shoes done at 25 mm. It does get expensive with 4x pair of shoes/ yr.

What Cory does for his speedplay cleats is to have a shim made out of AL by a machinist. I use spd & went & had one made as a backup so I could use any shoe if needed. I forgot to tell the machinist to use AL rather tha nsteel so it weighs a lot.

I use Sidi shoes and took it to a custom shoe maker who was able to remove the one piece sole, insert some light weigh material across the whole sole & then reattach the SIDI sole so I can just clip in. I've had one mtn bike shoe & 1 tri shoe done. They have both held up quite nicely & I've had no problems. It's nicer than the shim as I ca nwalk normally rather than limp. I sent some time researching what shoes could & couldn't have thsi done. I can sends pic if interested.

In the 80'swhen clipless pedals 1st became the norm I had my 1st pair done by the people who work on disabled athletes & they build the shim out of wood using longer screws to thread into the original spd on the shoes & then covered it with material of the rest of the shoe. i still use it on my computrainer but it weights a ton.

Though with only a 10 mm you should be able to use a shim quite easily.

Barb L
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [BarbBikeTechie] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

I'm interested in knowing where I can get the adapter plates for the sole as you mentioned. I've never been able to find them. I have an additional plat under my binding but then I can't demo skiis which I want to do.
Is this for the sole of your downhill ski boots? Any ski shop that is familiar with ski racing will be able to install "lifters" on the boot - all racers use them. What they do is screw in a specially made 10mm plastic plate (fits all boots) onto the bottom of the boot sole, then shave off the corresponding 10mm from the toe and heel lip so that the boots will still be able to fit into normal bindings.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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I have a 11mm anatomical difference which was measured using some type of xray of the full legs-femur to ankle bone.

For everyday and running, I have a 6mm full insert I put into my right shoe (correct only half since i've been living with this for a long time before confirming). Does take a while to find a shoe that will accommodate it, sometimes I have to size up.

For riding, I have some sort of wedge build up under the cleat. Took my fitter a while to get it right.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Many many moons ago I was hit by a car directing traffic as a cop. The resulting broken leg affectively shortened my right leg by 1". I had a horrible time with hip pain until it was found by an ortho surgeon that my right leg was indeed 1inch shorter. I raced for many years after that with a custom lift between my right cycling cleat and my shoe. My running, I used just a 1/4" lift in the heel. The cycling lift I used was made by a shoe repair shop. They used a leather piece that was custom made to match my cycling cleat. They shaped it the same and drilled the holes to match. This was 20 years ago.

Fast forward many more years and I have removed all lifts. My hips had adjusted to the daily leg length descrepency. Forward many more years and both my hips are now titanium as a result of arthritis. I won't run anymore but I cycle 5-6 days a week. I now naturally cycle toe down more on the right side to make up the difference. I don't even notice anymore.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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As have been mentioned, it's easy to determine the source of discrepency for someone trained in this area (namely physical therapists, etc. ). Below are the basic steps if you think you have someone whom may be able to help.

Finding Leg Length Discrepancy
1. Determine if pelvis is aligned: Stand flat footed, have someone palpate (feel) your hips and located a boney reference point (Typically the PSIS). See if these two sides are even with each other. If a difference is seen, then you have one hip rotated compared to the other. This is not structural, it can be fixed with mobilization / therapy by a trained individual.

2. Lay down flat on a table (on your back). Do a bridge or two, then have someone grasp your ankles and pull gentle. As they have slight traction, see if you ankles line up or if one is longer than the other. If a difference is seen, move to step 3.

3. While laying on back, bend knees to approximately 90 degrees, keeping feet flat on surface. Have helper look at knees in relation to each other to see whether the discrepancy is coming from. (e.g. find the femur or tibia that is shorter than it's counterpart on the opposite leg. Think of this like legs of a triangle and how they would move the apex of the triangle if a side were shorter).

Correcting for Leg Length Discrepancy
4. You always want to affect the shorter limb. Fit for the longer limb and then make corrections to adapt the shorter.

5. If you tibia is shorter, then you need to add more height because the tibia is *mostly* vertical during pedaling. this is done with shims between the cleat and the sole of the shoe. Multiple sources online

6. If you femur is shorter, then you need to shift your cleats because the femur is *mostly* horizontal during pedaling. Different shoes / cleat systems can accommodate this to different degrees. There are adaptor made for speedplay cleats that can shift back further than the standard adjustment.

When making corrections on the bike, only attempt to correct for half of the discrepancy. e.g. if a femur or tibia is 10mm short, then you typically want to only correct for 5mm of difference.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [SSMinnow] [ In reply to ]
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Geargrinder hasn't logged on since 2009
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Cam Nichols on YouTube. His latest vid has an extended interview with a physio and bike fitter and he covers a lot of thoughts on leg length difference.

As an aside, I've always wondered why people don't use different crank lengths on each side to help compensate.
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Re: (TOM D???) Pedals - what to do when one leg is longer than the other? [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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I used to ride with a guy who lost an inch off one of his legs as a result of a bad break. He had a custom made shim for his Speedplays, that was about an inch thick. I would think either a machinist could make one for you, as mentioned by somebody else, or do the 3D printing thing. This guy also had a custom made chainring to lesson the amount of pressure he would put on his leg. Dude was still fast!

---------------

"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
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