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? on Physiology of running in the heat
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Let's say a given runner has an LT pace of about 6:00/mile and does tempo workouts at that pace in perfect 45 degree weather. But on a hot humid, 90 degree day, running what feels like exactly the same effort is only 6:30 pace. Does this workout provide the same benefit? By that I mean are you really working at LT, so you are getting the same benefit as running 6:00 in the cooler weather? Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions - so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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skid777 wrote:
Does this workout provide the same benefit?
No.
Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions
Mostly

so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.
No. "Alls you can do is alls you can do"-Coggan
I'd try to do the run on the treadmill or at least in the best conditions possible.
Last edited by: Nick_Barkley: Sep 1, 12 13:24
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Nick_Barkley wrote:
skid777 wrote:
Does this workout provide the same benefit?
No.
Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions
Mostly

so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.
No. "Alls you can do is alls you can do"-Coggan
I'd try to do the run on the treadmill or at least in the best conditions possible.
So running at threshold in the heat/hummdittity will not help him in races when there is? I think it will. Nick I lost my phone in Vermont and some pot smoking liberal is probably using it now. Call me so i have your number again. But not till after 6:00 as my wife took my car and phone is in there. Are you in town now?

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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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It will help him in races under the same conditions, but the training impulse will be less.

I'm actually in Willingboro NJ for the next few weeks. You want to do the Labor Day 5k race in Cinnaminson NJ?
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Call me around 6 :0) i am working till 7:00 in the morning on monday and just did a long run today. So legs are kind of beat. Depending on the night I have and time of race it might be possable. Of course that all hinges on my wifes plans also...lol

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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Nick_Barkley wrote:
skid777 wrote:
Does this workout provide the same benefit?
No.
Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions
Mostly

so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.
No. "Alls you can do is alls you can do"-Coggan
I'd try to do the run on the treadmill or at least in the best conditions possible.

I disagree with this. Even though you're running slower, your HR will be elevated because the body will be working harder to cool itself. Also, there is slightly less O2 uptake in hot humid conditions, so again you're body will be working harder.

LT is not determined by pace, it's determined by O2 delivery and if there are outside stimuli (heat, humidity, altitude) that get you there at a lower pace, you are still providing an equivalent stimulus to your body.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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"Let's say a given runner has an LT pace of about 6:00/mile and does tempo workouts at that pace in perfect 45 degree weather. But on a hot humid, 90 degree day, running what feels like exactly the same effort is only 6:30 pace. Does this workout provide the same benefit? By that I mean are you really working at LT, so you are getting the same benefit as running 6:00 in the cooler weather? Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions - so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout."

This was my original post. Trying again with maybe a bigger audience on a weekday. Only had two responses, opposed to each other. Any more opinions? Or solid evidence? I would have thought this question had a simple cut and dried right answer and all of the scientific types out there would know it.

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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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skid777 wrote:
"Let's say a given runner has an LT pace of about 6:00/mile and does tempo workouts at that pace in perfect 45 degree weather. But on a hot humid, 90 degree day, running what feels like exactly the same effort is only 6:30 pace. Does this workout provide the same benefit? By that I mean are you really working at LT, so you are getting the same benefit as running 6:00 in the cooler weather? Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions - so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout."

This was my original post. Trying again with maybe a bigger audience on a weekday. Only had two responses, opposed to each other. Any more opinions? Or solid evidence? I would have thought this question had a simple cut and dried right answer and all of the scientific types out there would know it.

This is just opinion, but I think whether you are working at 45 or 90 degrees you are working and improving your cardiovascular system. What I think is going to be less of a benefit is the muscular benefit due to the fact you just can't push hard enough in the heat like you can in the cooler, wait 45 that's brutal cold, so you may not be improving your muscles or speed as much when it's hot as you can in the cool/cold. You will be adapting to the hot conditions, if that is something you will be faced with in your race. I'm of the opinion that if you are wanting to do speed or threshold workouts and you living in the oven, I mean desert, they should be done in the very early am when it's 30 degrees cooler than later in the day.

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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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This question sounds fishy to me because of the wide difference in environmental conditions. And was your LT tested under both conditions? So, is this an academic question for your exercise physiology class or a practical situation you are faced with?
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Pedalhead] [ In reply to ]
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There is nothing fishy about this. You're making it far more complicated than what I am asking. (as is everyone else) This is not a question for a class. Just a real life scenario. Nor about acclimating to heat. And I haven't had my LT measured or know to the second what pace it is. I have no desire to ever run a marathon in the heat if I can help it. Anything over about 45 degrees and I can't run a half, marathon, or any hard workout of any length worth a shit.

It's just a simple question - forget about exact numbers as far as temp or LT pace. All I'm asking is, if X minutes per mile is normally your LT pace and what you run tempo workouts at (in perfect conditions, whatever those happen to be to you), and you run in extreme heat (again, that is relative depending on how you handle the heat. For me, 70 is extreme heat for a hard workout, I just said 90 as for most people that would illustrate the point better), and due to this heat at the same effort you run X pace at in whatever is your perfect running weather, you run X + some amount, are you still getting the same workout? Are you still doing an LT workout - the effort feels like LT, but due to the heat it is much slower than usual.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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OK, this is a theoretical question for whatever your reason. But in practice, your race pace will depend mainly on the perceived exertion that you can tolerate for the distance. Obviously in the heat, your perceived exertion will be higher than in your comfort zone. To my knowledge there's no formula for predicting how much the heat would likely slow you.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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Heat Acclimation Improves Exercise PerformanceSantiago Lorenzo,1 John R. Halliwill,1 Michael N. Sawka,2 and Christopher Todd Minson1,*
1University of Oregon ; 2US Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine
Submitted 6 May 2010 ; revised 22 July 2010 ; accepted in final form 18 August 2010
This study examined the impact of heat acclimation on improving exercise performance in a cool environment. Twelve trained cyclists performed tests of maximal aerobic power (VO2max), time-trial performance, and lactate threshold, in both cool (13°C 30%RH) and hot (38°C 30% RH) environments before and after a 10-day heat acclimation (~50% VO2max in 40°C) program. The hot and cool condition VO2max and lactate threshold tests were both preceded by either warm (41°C) water or thermoneutral (34°C) water immersion to induce hyperthermia (0.8-1.0°C) or sustain normothermia, respectively. Eight matched control subjects completed the same exercise tests in the same environments before and after 10-days of identical exercise in a cool (13°C) environment. Heat acclimation increased VO2max by 5% in cool (66.8 ± 2.1 vs. 70.2 ± 2.3 ml kg-1 min-1, P = 0.004) and by 8% in hot (55.1 ± 2.5 vs. 59.6 ± 2.0 ml kg-1 min-1, P = 0.007) conditions. Heat acclimation improved time-trial performance by 6% in cool (879.8 ± 48.5 vs.934.7 ± 50.9 kJ, P = 0.005) and by 8% in hot (718.7 ± 42.3 vs. 776.2 ± 50.9 kJ, P = 0.014) conditions. Heat acclimation increased power output at lactate threshold by 5 % in cool (3.88 ± 0.82 vs. 4.09 ± 0.76 Watts kg-1, P = 0.002) and by 5 % in hot (3.45 ± 0.80 vs. 3.60 ± 0.79 Watts kg-1, P < 0.001) conditions. Heat acclimation increased plasma volume (6.5 ± 1.5%) and maximal cardiacoutput in cool and hot conditions (9.1 ± 3.4% and 4.5 ± 4.6%, respectively). The control group had no changes in VO2max, time-trial performance, lactate threshold, or any physiological parameters. These data demonstrate that heat acclimation improves aerobic exercise performance in temperate-cool conditions, and provide the scientific basis for employing heat acclimation to augment physical training programs.



Erik
Strava
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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skid777 wrote:
Let's say a given runner has an LT pace of about 6:00/mile and does tempo workouts at that pace in perfect 45 degree weather. But on a hot humid, 90 degree day, running what feels like exactly the same effort is only 6:30 pace. Does this workout provide the same benefit? By that I mean are you really working at LT, so you are getting the same benefit as running 6:00 in the cooler weather? Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions - so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.

My experience (I train all summer in SE Louisiana and run prior to work when the temperature is usually about 80 to 85 and the humidity is usuallly 90 to 98). I can not run the right paces in these conditions. My best VDOTs are between 50 and 54. During these morning runs, I am happy to be under 9:00 min/mile. That is freaking slow.

When the weather turns in a few weeks (god willing) I will be able to have the same RPE and be doing 7:30 min/mile.

I do continue to get faster training this way, so the workouts are doing something. But there is not a chance that I am doing the same thing that training at 7:30 would do.

That first month where the weather turns, it takes me a few weeks to start to feel right, and then I see a huge drop in average training pace. Once I do that average training pace for a few months (in the cool temps), I always seem to be able to race faster.

In summation, my answer is, suffering in the heat is going to do something for you, but it is not going to do as well for you as running in comfortable conditions and doing so much faster. If you plan to race in comforatable conditions, too bad, you wont be as well off as if you lived in trained in comfortable conditions. If you plan to race in the heat/humidity, then you will be all set.

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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [Nick_Barkley] [ In reply to ]
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Would you mind explaining how you know the "training impulse will be less?" Not that I'm disagreeing, but I would love to hear your evidence.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [skid777] [ In reply to ]
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The key part of your scenario is that you're comparing:

-- Running in ideal conditions at a pace that you are confident is your LT
-- Running in non-ideal conditions that "feels like the same effort as your LT"

So you're equating based on perceived effort, and asking whether the physiological adaptations will be the same. I can't give a comprehensive answer, but it's possible to figure out some of the similarities and differences.

At your LT, your body is facing a mix of aerobic and musculoskeletal stresses. The main aerobic stress is, well, the fact that it's at LT, and so it's learning to raise that threshold. The musculoskeletal stress is a function of the speed that you're going. If you're going slower at the same effort on the hot day, then the musculoskeletal stresses, and hence adaptations, are probably not exactly the same. But they're still useful. As for whether your aerobic system is at LT when you're putting out the same perceived effort, that depends on what it is about the heat that is slowing you down. If it's moving your genuine LT down, then you're still training your LT in the same way. If it's making you struggle for other reasons than LT, then it's probably not training your LT in the same way. I don't know enough about the physiological effects of heat to comment on that.

... The good news is that adaptations happen across a wide range of stresses, and so the most important thing is to respect the heat and to stress your body only to the degree that it can recover/adapt from. That's better than overdoing it and preventing your body's ability to recover.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [dave_voyageur] [ In reply to ]
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dave_voyageur wrote:
Would you mind explaining how you know the "training impulse will be less?" Not that I'm disagreeing, but I would love to hear your evidence.

Power is the stimulus, not effort.
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Re: ? on Physiology of running in the heat [ICSTG] [ In reply to ]
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It's been a decade since I've had an exercise physiology class but I'm gonna say you are wrong.

HR isn't a function of LT. You can do an LT test and get an LT HR from it, however that HR could be higher or lower on a given day due to the many variables that affect it (heat, humidity, fatigue, caffeine, dehydration, etc).

Just because you are running at LT HR, does not mean that you are running at a pace that is the same workload as your Lactate Threshold, thus not getting the same training effect since the benefit of running at/around LT is to teach the body to clear the lactate faster; with a decreased workload (slower pace) he isn't producing as much lactate therefore it's not the same.

ICSTG wrote:
Nick_Barkley wrote:
skid777 wrote:
Does this workout provide the same benefit?
No.
Or is 6:30 pace 6:30 pace, no matter what the conditions
Mostly

so basically the workout is pointless and not even worth doing, at least as a threshold workout.
No. "Alls you can do is alls you can do"-Coggan
I'd try to do the run on the treadmill or at least in the best conditions possible.


I disagree with this. Even though you're running slower, your HR will be elevated because the body will be working harder to cool itself. Also, there is slightly less O2 uptake in hot humid conditions, so again you're body will be working harder.

LT is not determined by pace, it's determined by O2 delivery and if there are outside stimuli (heat, humidity, altitude) that get you there at a lower pace, you are still providing an equivalent stimulus to your body.
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