I’m assuming that you’re on a smart trainer. Were you in erg mode? If you aren’t, then the terrain will matter. If you’re saying that you’re missing the interval, then it sounds like you’re on ramp mode.

By default, power is set for 3sec smoothing. What I’ve been doing is ramping up power (dumb trainer, so erg isn’t an option) 3secs before the interval starts and shutting down to the recovery target 2-3s before the interval ends. You could also turn off smoothing, but then I think the power would be quite spiky.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Good thought, I should have specified:
I'm on a Saris H2 and ERG mode.

To better explain, I could be going along in an interval with the feeling being steady, then I'd feel the power ease up maybe 20 watts. I'd look up at the screen and the terrain would ***seem*** be flattening. After a few seconds the trainer would recognize and bring me back to the prescribed power; as if the trainer was both trying to manage the prescribed powers and the grades within Zwift. I don't think it was drop-outs as I didn't have any Zero's reported. I understand this is completely anecdotal and likely me trying to find an explanation as to why there was so much fluctuation. Looking back at the file, When prescribed 275 there was an average of 275, a min of 258 and a max of 291, which is more than I'm used to. (and the min was in the middle of the interval, not the beginning or end).

Also, this wasn't a lag in my power numbers from one interval to the next, because Zwift generally matched my Computer, it was a lag in the actual Workload. E.g. Prescribed 350, but the trainer took 15 seconds to go from 250 to 350w (and also the same time back down again). In Trainerroad, it seems to only take 3 or so seconds.

I wasn't watching the screen intently throughout the workout because the slope changes did not correspond to my workout and it was confusing my oxygen deprived mind.

Set Up:
Zwift Reading Quarq Powermeter for Power and Cadence via Ant+
Zwift controlling H2 via Ant+

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I'm very new to Zwift workouts, having done exactly one (a manually created copy of a TR workout.) I experienced this as well two nights ago; my recovery intervals would randomly drop from about 135w to about 65, for about 2seconds at a time. I didn't experience it in work intervals. Similarly, I have no idea.

Tonight, I'm going to try something new: Connect my Kickr (which supports multiple BT connections) to my BT on my computer and Zwift, and then (attempt) to control the Kickr using ERG from TR on my phone. It worked in my 5 minute test last night, so we'll see. In the meantime, I have an ANT+ adapter on order.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Nice one!

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Decided to play around with the settings in pursuit of some believable numbers. I have a Tacx Bushido wheel on trainer which is known for under-estimating wattage. Last week I did some "testing" (not at all scientific).

On the Computrainer for my 20 min test, my NP was 250.7.

The day later, on Zwift, for the same 20 minutes effort my average power was 221.8.

Some messing around with the settings.

a) Set my weight as 130 lbs ( I am 150).

b) Set my FTP as 160.

Road 2 hours today.... a wide variety of paces and surprise! My FTP has now been upgraded to 184. Nice! That's just 2 watts shy of my average wattage for IMC last year.

What lessons have I learned from this??

What implications does this have for races on Zwift?

6 weeks none the wiser.

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Personally I'd try just using the H2 as the sole power and cadence source, otherwise you'll be getting a "push me, pull me type effect going on", all you have to do is concentrate on pedalling then.
Sure, run the Quarq, but just on your headunit - that way you a: have a back up, and b: have a 10 sec, and lap average, as i find the 3sec on zwift still a bit too changey.

I mostly use Zwift in training mode now with workouts imported from my coach and Today's Plan, but i tend to flip in and out of erg mode- use it for my warm up and cool down, but main block is done in simulation mode. I can still see what the workout steps are, its just its me thats driving them, and not the trainer.

If you know roughly what your workout is going to entail, then you can pick your world accordingly. Pointless trying do do sprint efforts if you're going up a 17% hill. Obviously if you are doing it all in erg mode then its a moot point as terrain changes are removed, but i do notice that if you are "going up a climb" with a fairly low wattage in erg, it does drop your virtual speed to simulate, and then the feel kind becomes a little clunky. Other than that its normally fine.

My new brake pads finally arrived in the mail today (My old ones were probably 15 years old, I really didn’t trust them anymore), so I slapped those on and took the bike out for a spin. First outside ride on the roadie in nearly 2 years, and it felt amazingly good. Granted, it was only a 5k loop around the neghbourhood, but that included a decent amount of climbing in such a short loop.

It was also my first outside ride on my steel bike in probably 10 years. That thing just rides sooooo nice and snappy compared to my carbon. The carbon is lighter, but the steel bike “seems” lighter in the saddle. Steel is real!

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Is there anyone out there using a Fenix 6 while zwifting? I did a planned workout from TrainingPeaks using zwift today where zwift was the primary data recorder. I have Garmin Vector 3 pedals and a Garmin cadence sensor which were paired with zwift before the workout began. Once the workout was completed and uploaded to GC, it didn't show any of the normal power data like Platform Center Offset, Pedal balance, etc. that one gets when just riding and not zwifting.

Note I did use the Virtual Run activity on my fenix 6 to record HR, but that seemed unnecessary as the data on GC included HR information.

Is there something I need to do before I start the zwift activity on either the zwift platform or the fenix 6 to be able to record the additional power data or is there no way to get this data when zwifting?

You need to record an indoor activity with the Fenix 6 and get that file to GC, the zwift file doesn't contain any of the extra information that Garmin collects.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

Thanks!

I assume what you're saying is that I need to use the Bike Indoor activity on the fenix 6 while zwifting and not the Virtual Run activity. Is that correct?

TrainerRoad is rock steady on Bluetooth, almost perfect on ANT+. If I get through 60min of Zwift (either connection) without any dropout, I call it a win.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Correct. Zwift will record just the simple metrics and that can be sent to Garmin Connect. To get the advance pedal metrics you do the Bike Indoor activity on the Fenix and send that to Garmin Connect.
At least that is the only way I found out to get the advanced metrics so far.

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Tiago
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Sponsors: : Blueseventy :

Quick Update:

Did a similar workout on Alpe but using only the H2 and not the Quarq and did not seem to have any issues.

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I started Zwift about a month ago and did my first race today. It was humbling and way harder than I thought. I actually dropped out about halfway through because I was so nauseous. Among my many mistakes, I did not cool my basement enough before the race or have my fan on high enough. I was hot just from the 15 minutes I spent spinning before the race.

My FTP is 4.1 w/kg, which means I'm barely good enough to get my butt kicked by all the fastest riders. I tried to hang on with the front pack at the start, but the effort of that first five minutes killed me. Maybe I should race in the B category. Plenty of B riders would have beaten me had I finished. For that matter, so would many C riders.

Other than the pain of the first few minutes, the other big challenge for me was all the accelerations within the race. I'm a triathlete and am way more accustomed to the steady pace of a time trial. I was pretty overwhelmed visually too. The first 10-15 minutes I had trouble locating myself in the pack and was often slow to react to an acceleration, which then led me to overreact. Fall off the back, crank up the power, shoot through the pack off the front-- that is not an efficient way to race.

One thing I'm confused about is the number of people in the race. When I was in the race, Zwift was telling me my place out of roughly 190 people. But when I look at Zwift Power, there are results for only about 60 people. Is that typical? Does that mean a lot of participants are just not registered with Zwift Power?

What race did you do? With that many people it sounds like a crit. Perhaps one of the road races would be better.

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I did the London 3R Classique Flat Race (23.4 m). It was six laps. I'd like to do a time trial, since that's a bit more familiar, but there seem to be fewer of those.

As mentioned upthread, one has to be able to do road racing style surges in Zwift. 4.1 w/kg, depending on your mass and strength, should be more than sufficient to place you top 10 in most races having up to ~50 riders.

Not everyone who Zwift's uses Zwift power. They do show up in the companion app though. 4.1 w/kg gets you in A grade, sadly though the bottom of A grade which means you are going to have to master the 1 minute hammer sit at over ftp for 5 and then sit around TH till the final sprint.

In A that's super hard which I suppose you expect it is A not C. With such a good FTP you should be able to compete in A once you master the other parts of the race.

Strategy 2 is go as hard a you can for the first minute, you should be in pack 1 unless you choose one of the big races. If you get shelled drop back to the next pack where there will be a ix of A and B with the odd C.

Here you'll see the biggest issue I have with the category system and in this case esp. the problem that exists in cat A (where you'll encounter some really strong riders each race).

@Zwift HQ: There just should be another separate race-cat on top (A+) as it is impossible to really compete in the A-cat with a ftp of 4.1wkg (which is still something to be very proud off!)

For reference, just looked into my ZP stats; in the races I've done in A I've never averaged under 4.4Wkg for 20min power (usually 4.7-5) and also always had to do >5Wkg for best 5min power (69kg). Despite this, I can barely break top 10 and definitely not contend for podiums, typically I can stay with the front-group however you'll need to be able to do some strong 1-5 min efforts and then "recover" at 4-4.5Wkg!
And if you encounter a big race with lot's of pro's then even above isn't sufficient to stay with the lead-pack, you'll def. need >5.5-6Wkg for 5 minutes and >7Wkg for 1 minute in that case

I'd even take it a step further and say: it seems like most races, especially if you're not in the lead pack of As, are essentially FTP rankings. That's not racing, that's a group FTP test.

So, rather than just complain, here's a proposed solution:
1) Zwift already has a massive amount of data about us as riders. Ascribe a rider profile based on 30s, 5min, 20min, and 60min power, with some flavor for absolute watts as well.

2) Schedule races as currently, but instead of massive groups, that break apart anyway, lump 20-50 riders of similar power together. Zwift can already 'hide' other riders in the world, so the races could all run simultaneously without influence on each other.

For added fun, implement an Xbox/Playstation style matchmaking system. Don't have time to commit to a long race, or maybe just wanna show up and go? Great, get matchmade with 7 other riders who are within fighting chance of you and have a quick 20min in Crit City.

Maybe it's because I spent my teens playing competitive Halo, but the biggest thing I remember about it is: games are fun when you feel like you have a chance of winning. Some of my most fun games I didn't even win, but I was damn close to it. Upgrading a Cat in Zwift is basically the opposite of fun: you doomed yourself to be shelled out for weeks, months, or maybe ever. People say that Zwift should auto upgrade; I say that Zwift should promote an environment in which people aren't disincentivized from upgrading.

And I know, I know, irl races don't ensure you're perfectly matched. But to that I'd say: 1) this isn't irl racing. 2) IRL, lower power riders have other options to stay competitive. Ride better lines, surf the field better, descend faster, etc etc. Real racing isn't just a power test either.

Heck, I'm mid-upper B, and I barely even race. I am trying to get into it more and more, but I just don't feel like it for the same reason I don't feel like doing 40min at FTP. Instead, I stay in TrainerRoad trying to get stronger and stronger so I too can get my ass kicked by the As. Riders who are not at the upper end of a cat don't have a big incentive to race, and riders who are at the upper end of a cat aren't challenged by the lower riders. I'd love a system that basically made it so that everyone in the group at least has a fighting chance.

Hell, you really wanna step up, implement a 4v4 Team Pursuit sim with 7 strangers. So now it's not even just you vs the other riders, it's all of you working together to throw down some hard over/under threshold efforts.

Now I'm just rambling, but it just frustrates me how damn fun Zwift could be. I also know I'm asking way too much from a company that can't make a route profile show the full route or even keep the direction of travel on that profile the same.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Not really complaining for myself as splitting A and A+ will only result in myself placing even lower in races :-)
At least now I have the illusion to be competitive until 2km to go (unless the real strong guys compete, then you'll be dropped on any serious incline/hill), in the end these races will def. make you stronger which is what its all about.

I agree that to some extend, zwift racing is sort of a group FTP-test.
Of course in real-life you also have two sides to racing, first of all; you need to be able to stay with the pack (esp. in crosswinds or hills) .. this can be regarded as the "group ftp-test" side of zwift racing.
On top of that the better riders will be able to break away / create splits / survive splits etc.
However now in cat A we have the strongish regional club-riders competing with WT riders something you won't see in the open races around here (Netherlands/Belgium)

Regarding your 2nd bullet; this would indeed be a great option for races with huge attendence and would benefit all of us (stronger and weaker riders).
Just group the riders in the starting pens based on some "power-profile" such that the strong riders don't end up behind splits and weaker riders are not demotivated instantly. Still think though that 20/5min power are most important parameter as this will define whether you can stay with the bunch for 90% of the course.

As a last advice, be aware of the course-profile before you sign up and make sure to enter races that suit your strengths (esp. important for non A+ riders)

Yeah, for sure. And I guess it's worth calling out too: I'm definitely aware that not everyone can win, ha. It does seem like sometimes people make reccs for how to 'fix' Zwift that basically boil down to 'People faster than me should be in another cat and people slower than me should be in mine," haha. I'd be happy to never win a race as long as I felt like I could.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Possibly we need additional grades. I'm 46 and can compete in B grade races. You would think in the population of cyclists that I would end up in around Cat 3.

Just like the real world when a pro or very good amateur shows up the top grade (A where I live) the A grade gets done.

Every time we start thread on Zwift, the algorithm the categories we find out that its just like the real world, if you don't make the move you are done and not getting back on.

People who ride A are going to have FTP over 300 and 5 min 15 second power that is going to hurt you.

I think you're onto something here. I'd much rather race against a few like-ability riders than a larger pack that breaks up.

These rankings are already being done in Zwiftpower, the system just needs to be refined, adopted, and utilized.

The changing direction of travel on the profile also drives me crazy

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Zwift, whatever its fault may be, is still based on real life mass start road racing, and that really isn't "fun" for the vast majority of people. One has to have some level of introspection to understand if one's deriving enjoyment for internal reasons or external reasons (as in, rankings and results). I would go so far to say that if one's looking at the wrong outlet to obtain "fun" if one is looking to zwift racing or IRL racing as the means to obtain it.

There's a reason why Cat-3 in the U.S. (basically middle of the amateur system used in bike racing in the U.S.) is known as the "ultimate cat". For one, to get there requires some level of aptitude (though some does upgrade from cat-4 via number of races completed). The second is that this is the ultimate destination for most, as (a) upgrade to cat-2 always requires actual upgrade points earned and as (b) cat-3 represents to physiological limit for most racers.

The second section of your post I bolded applies to most who upgrade to cat-3 and even more of those who upgrade to cat-2. Chances dry up for most once the upgrade is made, and one has to start asking the question, is the enjoyment coming from actually racing a bike, or is the enjoyment coming from doing well (echoing a point you made in your post). Zwift, in this regard, is no different.

While some deficiency in FTP (or rather, repeatable 3-8 min efforts, I would argue) may be mitigated by better race craft, there are very few ways one could overcome 50 W absolute difference or 0.75 W/kg in the real world. At that level, one has to do the (boring/dispiriting) time to have a chance to improve (assuming one could improve), and this may take up to three years of focused training, just to have a chance, all the while getting repeated shelled in races. That apprenticeship period is no one's definition of fun, and many end up quitting the sport altogether. For this reason, I have much more admiration for the category lifers than I do for those who rocket their way up the category. The latter basically utilized inherent skills (whether physiological or bike-racing specific), while the former are doing it for the love of it.

Mass-start bike racing is a sport for masochists. Almost all participants live a life of asceticism and discipline just to be competitive, yet most end up getting flogged by the competition anyway. Ironically, the handicapped system (as in, the categorization) may have something to do with this mentality, as least in the U.S. Relatively speaking, the percentile of those with a 4.5 w/kg FTP is comparable to those who could at least attain the old BQ standards. In both sports, there is be a gulf between being very good vs someone who could make a living doing it. Yet in cycling, the attention is turned to how one does relative to one's own percentile cohort and how one moves up to the next cohort a further 5 percentile upward, while losing track that 75th percentile and 85th percentile both means not much more than a gifted amateur. In running, one already realizes one's place in the big overall picture, and for that reason, one's more concerned about improving one's own performance, as opposed to one's performance against one's own cohort (thereby avoiding all the social anxieties that come with it)