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Zwift #letsbehonest movement
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Hey everyone! There has been an ongoing chat about cheating in Zwift, some of us are trying to address this. There has been a FB group started where we are sharing/providing info to show that we are as legit as the numbers that we are putting out. This is not just for men, or “A” riders, we are welcoming everyone to this group in the attempt to legitimize Zwift events. Also please sign up on ZwiftPower.com if you haven’t already. Thanks!!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2213931348820159

“ZwifTransparency is a non-authoritative, voluntary group where the community of Zwift Racers can push each other for transparency and honesty in the pursuit of clean sport.

This group is not a weight loss contest. Body Dysmorphia and issues of self-esteem attached to body image warrant serious attention. Fat shaming, boasting, and negative behavior will not be tolerated. This group is solely for advancing Zwift racing’s transparency through an individual's voluntary submission of data to support their Zwift profile.

If you do not feel comfortable sharing your information to the group, no worries—there is zero obligation to do so. If you would like to participate but do not want to post publicly, feel free to contact any moderator and they would be happy to review and vouch for your data.

Weigh-ins should follow the following protocol:
1) Begin FB Live video feed, wave hello
2) Tare scale to 0, place control weight of choice (5kg, 15kg, etc) to show accuracy
3) Tare scale to 0, step on scale for body weight
4) Tare scale to 0, step on scale with control weight + body weight
5) End video

Simple as that: wave hello, weigh-in, sign off.

An additional push for transparency will be rider power meter to trainer comparison of a few efforts: 5-15s power, 1 min, and 5 min. These are not maximal efforts to prove Zwift race power--but efforts to show how trainer and power meter track over duration.

All of this is voluntary. We love Zwift racing and we'd like it to be as fair as possible for us all.

#LetsBeHonest #ZwifTransparency”
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Great idea. The reputation zwift has for cheaters has been one of the things that kept me from jumping on the platform yet. For several reasons, I've decided that I'm getting on Zwift soon and I would be happy to participate in this when I do.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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You can be on Zwift and just not worry about races. I have done one. Realized I didn't give a singular damn about Zwift racing and now just do my training.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting idea. My weight is always set correctly for races, but I will occasionally tweak it for group rides so that I hit the power numbers I’m looking for. An example is this past weekend... I did a century ride that was advertised at 2.4 w/kg. If I had my normal fat ass weight in there I would either be riding solo the entire time, defeating the purpose of a group ride to help pass the time, or I would have burned out in 2 hours instead of 4.5. A slight tweak to my weight and I can ride with a group of people I’m coming to know after a few rides and that’s what I love about Zwift.

I’m a back of the pack C racer and have no idea how much cheating is involved as most of the people I’m racing against seem to put out pretty reasonable numbers. I’m sure the cheating is more obvious at the front of each category.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
You can be on Zwift and just not worry about races. I have done one. Realized I didn't give a singular damn about Zwift racing and now just do my training.

Absolutely! Zwift is a lot of fun and a great training tool even without the racing side of it. I am competitive by nature and it has been a healthy outlet from me as I have switched from the bike into an office. Also I've made a lot of good friends within the Zwift racing community, so they've made sure that my fitness doesn't drop too far from what it was.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [ In reply to ]
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I have to start with the caveat that I don't do zwift races (or haven't for a long time), and I do trainerroad and am happy with that, but if zwift is wanting to push the e-sports thing and make it as legit as something like that can be, and push it to the amateur level, then I think they need to start with a licensing system for people who want to participate in races. I'm sure this goes against what they really want as far as not creating barriers, but I think some barriers are necessary to weed out the cheaters. If people don't want to play that game, they can always just ride around or do group rides. As far as I can see, relying on zwiftpower for after the fact DQ's is pretty useless if cheaters are allowed to push the pace and even drive pivotal moves. I'm sure they know all the trainer models as well, they can easily exclude anyone with just a wheel on smart trainer or z-power from participating in races and keep things to more accurate direct drive and actual power meters. I'm sure there's a certain level of naivety to this whole post, but just some random thoughts that I think could move zwift racing to be more honest. I view races as good training, but some people really like to compete that way and it should be fair regardless of how seriously one takes these races.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I applaud your efforts, you can only do what you can do. But accountability is a strong motivator, and maybe you will just be making people aware that there is such a thing as cheating in zwift.. And just like all the other AG real doping threads, you get those folks that come on and say what is the big deal, who cares, do your own thing, you don't have to race, etc...

Not sure why these people feel they have to post the obvious, who cares that they dont care??

"You can be on Zwift and just not worry about races. I have done one. Realized I didn't give a singular damn about Zwift racing and now just do my training".
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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This is a cool idea but It's not going to make Zwift much different for me. I've been using races as super tough training days and at the end of the day it's more important to me to get a Training Peak all time power value. There aren't any prizes (in the races I do). I will be happy to send a picture of me weighing in in my birthday suit with my natural sweater. I'm proud of all 86kg. Although I might be able to get to 85kg if I pull out the body razor that has been hibernating since my last race in October. :P

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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Ohio_Roadie wrote:

Weigh-ins should follow the following protocol:
1) Begin FB Live video feed, wave hello
2) Tare scale to 0, place control weight of choice (5kg, 15kg, etc) to show accuracy
3) Tare scale to 0, step on scale for body weight
4) Tare scale to 0, step on scale with control weight + body weight
5) End video
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha Fat chance

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [347CX] [ In reply to ]
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What about two types of races? “Sanctioned” races with verified weights and calibrated power meters. “Unsanctioned” would be Zwift racing as it exists today?

With that being said, I’m curious where things stop? I’ve been accused of cheating b/c I have a power meter and not a smart trainer (Quarq, so accurate and calibrated). Do we need races just for people with smart trainers? What about an $800 smart trainer vs a $500 smart trainer? Is there a difference? I’m not trying to be a jerk... I’m genuinely curious as to people’s opinion on these matters.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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I think all valid questions, it's always tough to know where to draw the lines avoid overcomplicating the rules. Honestly not sure why anyone would accuse someone with a power meter as a cheater when it's probably the gold standard. Maybe someone who knows better can elaborate, but is it possible for direct drive trainers to be miscalibrated to inflate power the way wheel on smart trainers can? But I think some form of sanctioning would be good, and maybe leave room for unsanctioned for the rest who don't care.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is people think that a smart trainer is more "realistic" on climbs because it adjust resistance. But a watt is a watt, the only thing the smart trainer effects is gearing. I don't feel like everyone on zwift understands that.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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I think your idea is fine.

There needs to be something for the people who take it (way too?) seriously and for the competition aspect.

But for rest of us, the way it is works. I think it works for Zwift as well, as they would want to keep the bar low and attract as many people as possible to their platform. Requiring a smart trainer, a powermeter with a 1% error margin etc (or video of you weighing yourself) needs to be reserved for those that are interested in it.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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It's nice to try to have some fairness in zwift racing and make people aware some care it's fair but int the end it'll remain very dependent on the power meter. Some say i know it's precise and calibrated but i've owned a number of PM of regarded brands (power2max, Garmin, Elite, Favero) some less regarded (Bkool) and while the Bkool was way off the others have serious difference even after proper torquing and calibration. When i see the small difference that occur at the top of the races i know i would have won a lot with the Vector (about 3% above others), some with the favero (the closest i would think of an actual power value), not many with the direto because the surge feels damped and none with the p2m (gen 1 with precision updates) which is always about 3% under the others.
So as i said before Zwift and Zwift races are great for motivation but i really feels like making it too "serious" or "sanctioned" is moot. True races are on real road, the one who cut the line first win, period.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I've said from the very beginning weight doping will be the biggest issue with Zwift. That, and grossly inaccurate power meters and smart trainers. I think for any kind of Zwift awards or standings to be "official" there needs to be some kind of Zwift bluetooth scale a rider uses before every event. Riders who aren't weighed in don't count in the official or competitive standings.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
You can be on Zwift and just not worry about races. I have done one. Realized I didn't give a singular damn about Zwift racing and now just do my training.

I'm with ya... and even worse. I don't really understand the fun of free riding Zwift in general. There is a massive disconnect when shifting properly and it just isn't enjoyable. I've resulted in simply doing ERG mode for everything. It's even got me thinking that I should just get TrainerRoad and bail on Zwift all together.

Am I alone?
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
iamuwere wrote:
You can be on Zwift and just not worry about races. I have done one. Realized I didn't give a singular damn about Zwift racing and now just do my training.


I'm with ya... and even worse. I don't really understand the fun of free riding Zwift in general. There is a massive disconnect when shifting properly and it just isn't enjoyable. I've resulted in simply doing ERG mode for everything. It's even got me thinking that I should just get TrainerRoad and bail on Zwift all together.

Am I alone?

I'm a level 40 or whatever Zwifter and have never done a single race. I just freeride my tri bike around and listen to music, podcasts, or watch youtube videos. The only "racing" aspect I do is imagine I'm in an ironman. If it's crowded, I imagine it's the aid station zone. If it's not crowded, I imagine I'm trailing or passing the people in front of me. It's nice. I change my weight to be accurate on occasion, but rarely think about it. Racing against others all the time is a formula for me to get overtrained or injured, so I avoid it on Zwift.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I have no doubt Trainer Road is far superior as a training tool. I have zwift for visual entertainment. I usually run TR at the same time to control the workout
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
I have no doubt Trainer Road is far superior as a training tool. I have zwift for visual entertainment. I usually run TR at the same time to control the workout

No judgement but that seems like a lot of money to spend. On a side note, I completely don't blame you bc the 'training workouts' Zwift offer are the worst. I don't understand why they don't have more options.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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Toefuzz wrote:
What about two types of races? “Sanctioned” races with verified weights and calibrated power meters. “Unsanctioned” would be Zwift racing as it exists today?

With that being said, I’m curious where things stop? I’ve been accused of cheating b/c I have a power meter and not a smart trainer (Quarq, so accurate and calibrated). Do we need races just for people with smart trainers? What about an $800 smart trainer vs a $500 smart trainer? Is there a difference? I’m not trying to be a jerk... I’m genuinely curious as to people’s opinion on these matters.


IMHO this is what the "pro"/super league should be. Verified riders battling it out in "sanctioned" races, and not the hype exclusive UCI pro/invite only mockery that round 1 has turned out to be. If you have enough passion in this, as some folks do, between Strava, ZwiftPower and some other ways to analyze power, its not that difficult to spot most "cheaters". Unfortunately it seem there are a lot of power using bad power sources and they honestly believe that they are stronger than they really are. They tend to get really defensive and/or aggressive when the validity of their data comes up, but some say that is a dead giveaway in it's own right. For "unsanctioned" races, I guess, the current ZwiftPower.com results, and a community effort to push for honesty is the best way to do it for now.

I believe the trainers that are currently not accepted by Zwift for "sanctioned" racing are the Elite Turbo Muin, Tacx Flux and Wattbike. I heard from a few riders that are currently in the "Super League" that they are not allowed to use "crank based" power. Why Zwift is eliminating the category "crank based power" instead of providing a list of generally accepted power meters is beyond me. So what about a PowerTap hub or PowerPedals?

I have a CycleOps Hammer but use the power source from my SRM (road bike) or Quarq Riken (TT bike) that way my readings are,in theory, the same as what I would see if I was riding/racing outside. I believe my SRM PM7 reads a little lower than the Quarq Riken (on update 24 with power balance unlocked), but they are still within the margin of error for both pm's and the Hammer. Should I notice a difference in power or I would withdraw from the race until I can correct the issue. I know some guys will withdraw or even skip a race if their HR isn't recording properly but I think that is a bit extreme for most situations.
Last edited by: Ohio_Roadie: Feb 5, 19 14:57
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Toefuzz] [ In reply to ]
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There are some smart trainers that are more accurate than some power meters.


--Chris
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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There is no way in hell I'm giving facebook access to that kind of info about me.
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't signed up to ZwiftPower since the GDPR shutdown/changes/reinstatement. I'm just not comfortable with it, personally. I do one ride on Zwift and that data goes to Zwift (with a a LOT more than just the FIT file heading their way), Strava, Gamin Connect... and ZwiftPower if I was to sign up for that. One ride. And a shitton of companies get my data. It's getting a little crazy.

Now we're being asked to send people who operate online under an alias, videos of us weighing in...... in the name of transparency. Um....

I totally get the idea. I totally understand the need. Things need to keep moving forward here to legitimise this (and other) platforms for racing. I'll do my best to champion progression with tech, progression in the industry, and thinking outside of the box.....


But if in 2019 the best we can do is send semi-naked bathroom scale videos to an unknown person(s) on the Internet...... that's a big "NO" from me. For now.

Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I always hit Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left Right, B, A, Start before a zwift race. Is that cheating?
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Re: Zwift #letsbehonest movement [Ohio_Roadie] [ In reply to ]
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I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed. Glad your trying to find a solution but it seems a bit invasive.
It would be nice if local bike shops had a zwift weigh in scale. It would get people in the bike shop and have an independent person verifying the weight.
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