Zwift Weight Doping

Jun 30, 20 9:29

Post #1 of 77 (7125 views)

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I'm new to Zwift and noticed some odd feedback post-ride this morning.

I have a friend on Strava that rode the same route this morning. I did FTP Builder and rode 6 extra miles to reach my miles goal for the morning. He did 45 miles of the 6 mile ride that I did on the same route. We put out identical speed at 20.4mph. His watts were 168w. My watts were 194w. I weigh before every ride and measured 5'9" 154lbs. He is 6'2". To produce the same watts per kilo he would have to weigh around 132lbs. A mutual friend told me he weighs about 185lbs. I thought wtf...

Perhaps he just hasn't updated his weight and doesn't care. You're really cheating yourself if you don't dial in the algorithm for rides with accurate inputs.

On the other hand, these people are cheating the zwift platform by not providing accurate information. One guy was red flagged this morning just cruising along at 9.6 watts/kg. Nothing to see here.

I am glad IM VR requires pictures of weigh ins for their championship series. This virtual racing and training should be fair, especially racing.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 9:37

Post #2 of 77 (7106 views)

Do you know what type of ride he did his on? Was it a group ride or race? (probably not race at 168w) Drafting makes a big difference in speed. Also, what bike did you use, and what bike did he use? If neither was done in a group ride, and there was very minimal drafting, then the TT bikes will be faster than the regular bikes. Was it a flat course, or hilly course? If it was flat course, then watts matters more than w/kg, so his weight wouldn't be as relevant on a flat course. So if he was in a group ride, and had a good draft, it seems reasonable that he would be able to match your speed on 30 less watts. Or he could be weight doping. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [MRid] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 9:42

Post #3 of 77 (7087 views)

It was the flattest ride on zwift. His Strava did say he rode with 6 others, so perhaps it was a group ride and the close to 30 watts was accounted for by drafting. If so, that's a huge difference but not so different from these draft packs you see on the roads.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:03

Post #4 of 77 (7027 views)

Just FYI, I was on a popular group ride (100's), and the rider leader just said, "If you're having trouble, go ahead and drop your weight so you can stay with us. But don't EVER do that in a race."

I don't know if that's common or not. I have never done that, though. I just get dropped.

I won't name names because I heard this secondhand from another elite rider so am not 100% sure, but two pros were recently called out just prior to big-name virtual Zwift races for their Zwift weight being way under the pictures of them on a scale they had been required to send in. The rationale was something about just wanting to hang with a group ride while tapering for the race.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:09

Post #5 of 77 (7008 views)

Honestly, a lot of the mass populace of Zwift would enjoy group rides a lot more if they just did this.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:12

Post #6 of 77 (7000 views)

mwanner13 wrote:

It was the flattest ride on zwift. His Strava did say he rode with 6 others, so perhaps it was a group ride and the close to 30 watts was accounted for by drafting. If so, that's a huge difference but not so different from these draft packs you see on the roads.

Drafting makes for an enormous difference

Flattest road around is the Tempus Fugit course. At 71 kg, 215-220 W solo gets me around 38 kph. In a group, I'll go about 42 kph, if there are four or five other riders doing similar w/kg. Even more so if I'm doing a group ride with double draft.

That's one of the biggest signs for why aerodynamics Zwift is whack.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:16

Post #7 of 77 (6985 views)

I know people who’ve done that for group rides. I wouldn’t ever do it, but I don’t think it’s that big a deal. Would be like a weaker rider using an ebike so he could hang with his friends in the real world.

But I also don’t get overly concerned about people putting out unrealistic watts and w/kg when they are just riding around in Zwift. It’s not hurting me, so whatever. Now in a race, that’s a different story.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [echappist] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:17

Post #8 of 77 (6980 views)

Lol, I am almost always SLOWER on the TT bike in Zwift due to how much draft even non-group riding gives you on crowded days.

Yeah, it makes a difference. I've seen folks you'd never dream being able to crack an hour up the Alpe do huge group rides and hammer our sub 50min times. Draft even matters there!

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:24

Post #9 of 77 (6964 views)

I'll bet a large part of the difference was drafting. Drafting has huge effects in Zwift. People do weight-dope, but it seriously makes zero sense to weight-dope your training ride.

Height does also cause small speed differences.

Also not to be overlooked are trainer vs trainer power calibration differences. One trainer might read high by 15 watts, the other low by 15 watts, and right there is 30 watts difference at baseline. On a cold day in my garage, my Kickr Gen 1 will be off 5-15 watts for the first 30 minutes (compared to Faveros) until the unit warms up (not sure if newer Kickrs have this problem.)

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:27

Post #10 of 77 (6953 views)

While the draft works during work out mode. He would most likely have been drafting others, and getting the close the gap message to encourage draft. You don't get that message in work out mode.

Were you on a TT bike?

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [stevie g] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:31

Post #11 of 77 (6928 views)

stevie g wrote:

While the draft works during work out mode. He would most likely have been drafting others, and getting the close the gap message to encourage draft. You don't get that message in work out mode.

Were you on a TT bike?

I wasn't on a TT.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:37

Post #12 of 77 (6911 views)

I'm not understanding why this matters. It wasn't a race so there was no advantage over anyone for anything. His workout is the same because his watts are the same, regardless of whether he entered 100kg or 50kg - he didn't cheat himself because his kcal/kj/tss is all going to be what it is regardless. I guess I'm failing to see why it makes a difference.

If I'm racing, I'll get on the scale and make sure I'm within a pound of what I've got loaded into zwift, and if I'm not then I change the weight. I've never been on the scale before a training ride though, and my weight does fluctuate a fair amount due to living in a high heat/humid area. Maybe I'm missing something, but I kind of doubt it.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:38

Post #13 of 77 (6906 views)

mwanner13 wrote:

It was the flattest ride on zwift. His Strava did say he rode with 6 others, so perhaps it was a group ride and the close to 30 watts was accounted for by drafting. If so, that's a huge difference but not so different from these draft packs you see on the roads.

30W savings from drafting is not a huge amount. I suspect you've often saved considerably more than that in real life if you do any group rides. The figures usually I've usually seen suggested for real world drafting benefit are in the 20-30% region. Thus, if you did a real world flat ride at 194W, and someone similar weight and size to you drafted you the entire time, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect his power figures to be in anywhere in the 125W-155W range. So without knowing considerably more about his ride, it's not reasonable for you to assume he's weight doping. If he was riding close to you and you knew your pacing, equipment and interaction with traffic were similar, then you could draw some conclusions. Easier still, just look at his power output using "Fan view" and note the equivalent W/kg figure in the sidebar.

Power / Power to weight ratio = weight

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:44

Post #14 of 77 (6893 views)

I'm seeing a lot of inverse weight doping in Zwift. Guys doing B and C races averaging 320-350 W but weighing 85-95 kg. We're doing a TTT every Thursday - class has a maximum of 3 B riders and up to 5 C riders. All our Cs are on the edge of upgrading (will have to move up to a higher TT class soon) and our Bs are putting out good power but we're still shipping 3 minutes to other teams. looking at the results of the top teams and they're dominated by riders putting out huge power but very high weight with average height. Great team building fun for us but we get destroyed on the flats and do much better on lumpy courses.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [carlosflanders] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 10:59

Post #15 of 77 (6854 views)

carlosflanders wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of inverse weight doping in Zwift. Guys doing B and C races averaging 320-350 W but weighing 85-95 kg. We're doing a TTT every Thursday - class has a maximum of 3 B riders and up to 5 C riders. All our Cs are on the edge of upgrading (will have to move up to a higher TT class soon) and our Bs are putting out good power but we're still shipping 3 minutes to other teams. looking at the results of the top teams and they're dominated by riders putting out huge power but very high weight with average height. Great team building fun for us but we get destroyed on the flats and do much better on lumpy courses.

Why on earth do you think this is a case of "inverse weight doping"?
Why do you not believe they weigh 85-95kg and produce 320-350W?

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:13

Post #16 of 77 (6815 views)

Ai_1 wrote:

mwanner13 wrote:

It was the flattest ride on zwift. His Strava did say he rode with 6 others, so perhaps it was a group ride and the close to 30 watts was accounted for by drafting. If so, that's a huge difference but not so different from these draft packs you see on the roads.

30W savings from drafting is not a huge amount. I suspect you've often saved considerably more than that in real life if you do any group rides. The figures usually I've usually seen suggested for real world drafting benefit are in the 20-30% region. Thus, if you did a real world flat ride at 194W, and someone similar weight and size to you drafted you the entire time, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect his power figures to be in anywhere in the 125W-155W range. So without knowing considerably more about his ride, it's not reasonable for you to assume he's weight doping. If he was riding close to you and you knew your pacing, equipment and interaction with traffic were similar, then you could draw some conclusions. Easier still, just look at his power output using "Fan view" and note the equivalent W/kg figure in the sidebar.

Power / Power to weight ratio = weight

As a newbie, I didn't even consider drafting. Most of my rides I've not really randomly linked up with passerbys and drafted for long periods. I'm sure in his case he arranged a group ride with others in advance. That probably accounts for the near 30 watt less difference for a larger rider.

Obviously I've drafted in group rides on the road so people doing it on zwift is really no different. It doesn't change my approach or perspective.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [stevie g] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:15

Post #17 of 77 (6810 views)

stevie g wrote:

While the draft works during work out mode. He would most likely have been drafting others, and getting the close the gap message to encourage draft. You don't get that message in work out mode.

Were you on a TT bike?

I was not comparing the portion of my ride that was done in workout mode. It was the free ride done at the end of the workout.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [Morelock] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:16

Post #18 of 77 (6805 views)

Morelock wrote:

Honestly, a lot of the mass populace of Zwift would enjoy group rides a lot more if they just did this.

I have no problem in general for social rides. The problem is it can have unintended consequences. When the "floor" becomes, say, 3.5 W/kg, that incentivizes further use of weight-dropping.

I'd prefer Zwift have an explicit "helper button" or something, where there's a notification icon to let everyone know you're getting some help. No shame in it. But the whole thing should be transparent, and not involve changing what should be a real world measurement.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:33

Post #19 of 77 (6773 views)

Ai_1 wrote:

carlosflanders wrote:

I'm seeing a lot of inverse weight doping in Zwift. Guys doing B and C races averaging 320-350 W but weighing 85-95 kg. We're doing a TTT every Thursday - class has a maximum of 3 B riders and up to 5 C riders. All our Cs are on the edge of upgrading (will have to move up to a higher TT class soon) and our Bs are putting out good power but we're still shipping 3 minutes to other teams. looking at the results of the top teams and they're dominated by riders putting out huge power but very high weight with average height. Great team building fun for us but we get destroyed on the flats and do much better on lumpy courses.

Why on earth do you think this is a case of "inverse weight doping"?
Why do you not believe they weigh 85-95kg and produce 320-350W?

Because he's right. I've seen folks in a group I'm a team member on Zwift for talk about it on Facebook before. They don't want to race where they should be because they'll be "bottom barrel".

It's probably people right on that 4.0w/kg barrier with lots of power but also some weight. They add some weight on to stay "B's".

Our group people on Facebook told them vehemently NO, do not alter your weight higher to cat-down.

So, it is real and does happen.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:33

Post #20 of 77 (6771 views)

As someone who's operated as a "Sweep" for zwift group rides, I can say that getting someone to say they need a wheel is about as hard as pulling teeth

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:36

Post #21 of 77 (6756 views)

we definitely have a problem here if zwift is allowing you to change weight during a ride....

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:37

Post #22 of 77 (6751 views)

I don't know if you can during a ride, I only know of people doing it before the ride.

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [synthetic] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:38

Post #23 of 77 (6747 views)

synthetic wrote:

we definitely have a problem here if zwift is allowing you to change weight during a ride....

I'm not sure that it is. I just thought that's what the ride leader meant when he said that. Though it's possible he meant, "If you're having trouble this time, lower your weight before the next time you do this ride."

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [MRid] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:39

Post #24 of 77 (6747 views)

MRid wrote:

As someone who's operated as a "Sweep" for zwift group rides, I can say that getting someone to say they need a wheel is about as hard as pulling teeth

Only when at least 30" back and complaining about the advertised pace ;)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Re: Zwift Weight Doping [trail] [ In reply to ]

Jun 30, 20 11:49

Post #25 of 77 (6733 views)

trail wrote:

Morelock wrote:

Honestly, a lot of the mass populace of Zwift would enjoy group rides a lot more if they just did this.

I have no problem in general for social rides. The problem is it can have unintended consequences. When the "floor" becomes, say, 3.5 W/kg, that incentivizes further use of weight-dropping.

I'd prefer Zwift have an explicit "helper button" or something, where there's a notification icon to let everyone know you're getting some help. No shame in it. But the whole thing should be transparent, and not involve changing what should be a real world measurement.

In general I agree.
Why would someone have to reduce their weight to stay in a group ride? There's a few possibilities:

Inadvertently chose a group ride above their ability because they didn't understand the plan or don't understand their own ability.
Just having a really bad day
Knew the ride would be at their limit and fancied giving it a try to see how they managed
Group ride is not sticking to it's advertised power levels (the fence was good for keeping this under control)

All of the above can happen, but I don't think reducing weight is a good solution. As you say, it's likely to raise the floor so that it starts appearing everyone has great power to weight. It's always an option to just drop out and carry on solo, and that's the option I take if I just can't hang on.

I like your suggestion of a helper button. As you say, it would need to be flagged to others what you were doing or would distort things. We don't want people using the helper button to ride off the front and split groups, or to save energy during a ride so they can contest a mini race, sprint or climb at the end of an otherwise noncompetitive ride. that would be the height of bad sportsmanship, and shouldn't be facilitated.

Last edited by: Ai_1: Jun 30, 20 12:56

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