What the fuck is a zwift?
Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [TA3]
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Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [tomee]
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Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [japarker24]
[ In reply to ]
japarker24 wrote:
What the fuck is a zwift?
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [triathlete37]
[ In reply to ]
triathlete37 wrote:
japarker24 wrote:
What the fuck is a zwift?Strava?
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [mickison]
[ In reply to ]
I've been doing zwift races since they started doing them and I don't think I've ever done a race where the start wasn't stupid fast. It's usually the most selective "move" of the race. Think of it as the early break of the day, but it never gets caught.
When it's a mixed start of A,B,C,D, the strategy at the start is really important if you aren't in the A group. If you are a C or B, you won't be able to stay with the A group leaders without blowing up pretty quick (unless you are a serious sandbagger). Finding the "right" grouping at the start is key, I've often gotten in a group of stronger guys and held on for dear life, eventually getting dropped, but winning my group or at least getting on the podium.
My starts usually go like this:
Hard Vo2+ ~3 minutes going really deep on the edge of blowing up
Get in a group of stronger guys where I'm hanging on without being much above FTP
Don't be afraid to let a few guys in my group go up the road with the really fast guys, they typically drop back eventually and we often go right by them
10-15 minutes in, hope the pace eases a bit and settle into a long-hard effort trying to ride as efficient as possible, take pulls where it makes sense, but have power in reserve for climbs and surges
I wouldn't say Zwift racing is all that realistic, but there are a lot of concepts that carry over from real racing. It's also the most (only?) fun I have on a trainer and I find the workout to be better than actual racing.
When it's a mixed start of A,B,C,D, the strategy at the start is really important if you aren't in the A group. If you are a C or B, you won't be able to stay with the A group leaders without blowing up pretty quick (unless you are a serious sandbagger). Finding the "right" grouping at the start is key, I've often gotten in a group of stronger guys and held on for dear life, eventually getting dropped, but winning my group or at least getting on the podium.
My starts usually go like this:
Hard Vo2+ ~3 minutes going really deep on the edge of blowing up
Get in a group of stronger guys where I'm hanging on without being much above FTP
Don't be afraid to let a few guys in my group go up the road with the really fast guys, they typically drop back eventually and we often go right by them
10-15 minutes in, hope the pace eases a bit and settle into a long-hard effort trying to ride as efficient as possible, take pulls where it makes sense, but have power in reserve for climbs and surges
I wouldn't say Zwift racing is all that realistic, but there are a lot of concepts that carry over from real racing. It's also the most (only?) fun I have on a trainer and I find the workout to be better than actual racing.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [bluto]
[ In reply to ]
bluto wrote:
... My starts usually go like this:
Hard Vo2+ ~3 minutes going really deep on the edge of blowing up
Get in a group of stronger guys where I'm hanging on without being much above FTP
Don't be afraid to let a few guys in my group go up the road with the really fast guys, they typically drop back eventually and we often go right by them
10-15 minutes in, hope the pace eases a bit and settle into a long-hard effort trying to ride as efficient as possible, take pulls where it makes sense, but have power in reserve for climbs and surges
...
This is pretty much my exact strategy.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [TA3]
[ In reply to ]
The only way I've found of not getting dropped immediately is to be going about 2x the race's advertised w/kg level immediately before the start, and continue at about that effort level as long as needed, which may be longer than you are able to do it. The starts are absolutely bonkers.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [November Dave]
[ In reply to ]
November Dave wrote:
The only way I've found of not getting dropped immediately is to be going about 2x the race's advertised w/kg level immediately before the start, and continue at about that effort level as long as needed, which may be longer than you are able to do it. The starts are absolutely bonkers.I can usually get in the lead group if I average 450 or so for a minute or minute and a half. My problems that I need to work on:
I fall for the accordion effect a lot or whatever it’s called.
My guy doesn’t bike straight. I’m sure it’s me and don’t know why...
I need to pay attention to short hills. I’m fine on longer hills but I’ll lose a wheel on the short ones. I can catch up to the B group about twice then I’m on my own.
....a warmup is zwift code for: Gettin’ To the countable Laps.
Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [November Dave]
[ In reply to ]
I rode at the high end of w/kg for my class and was dead last in the last race I did. The top guys averaged about 40% higher w/kg than the max recommended for the class. I had zero plans to go balls out and was just getting a workout in. So I didn't mind getting smashed. That stated, if the class range is 2.5 to 3.2 (Class C) and the top half of the class rides at 4.0 to 4.5... what's the fucking point?
Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
There are 'sandbaggers' in the lower categories. If you check the results on Zwiftpower.com, however, they get filtered into the correct category.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
The issue that I think happens in a lot of the races I have done is that all categories start at the same time so the Cat A guys go ball out at 400+ watts then B/C guys try to keep up and that leads to a crazy first 5 minutes before groups are formed. If people do go over the watts/kg I believe they are either taken off the results or are automatically upgraded in that race. I have found that the B races are basically 4 watts/kg which is the max so it is hit or miss with going just above 4.
I also think that some of the races are better with grouping than others. I have done plenty of the WBR races and they seem to be pretty good with the correct watts/kg with races.
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I also think that some of the races are better with grouping than others. I have done plenty of the WBR races and they seem to be pretty good with the correct watts/kg with races.
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Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [bluto]
[ In reply to ]
bluto wrote:
I don't think I've ever done a race where the start wasn't stupid fast. It's usually the most selective "move" of the race. Think of it as the early break of the day, but it never gets caught.So, it's totally fake then.
The only time that one or two guys will break from a somewhat competent peloton is in a crit course where the course is short enough that a one or two person break can lap the entire field and catch the draft at the back of the pack. Or a hill climb.
From what I've seen others doing (complaining online, watching youtube vids of races, etc....), it is NOT something I'm really interested in yet as the physics and grouping of riders seems to belie reality.
Breaks are math on speed, time, watts, and number of riders in the break. It sounds like to me either there are some broken physics OR cheaters and sandbaggers.
Math here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-what-are-the-chances-of-breakaway-success/
Quote from other article on breaks:
"The break is a time-honored part of bicycle racing. It’s also a low-percentage game; especially today, breakaways are caught before the finish far more often than they succeed."
On getting dropped: if the race is properly comprised of equal CAT individuals, you'll only really get dropped if there are climbs that shatter the group. Even then, unless you're way over your head, you would be in one of the "Selections" over the climb, meaning groups making it over around the same time and regrouping on the other side. Usually the second selection can catch the first with enough time to the finish assuming the first selection wasn't too large.
I do believe Zwift is a microcosm of the real cycling scene. I guess you get a higher percent of stronger riders versus local B, A, and A+ group rides simply because you are paying money and spending money on extra equipment to ride/race online. That effort to entry will weed out a lot of more below average and average riders.
But........having done real world rides from anything with 4 people to 250 people and someone or a group breaks out.........the thing you see of one, two, or three people managing an epic wattage break that stays away in Zwift is more fantasy when you compare it to the stats of breaks in the real world.
In an ideal world, meaning Zwift wouldn't have to worry about making money, they would require you to only Zwift with a real power meter and link your USAC or UCI account to your Zwift account for categorization. Then figure out some kind of method of inputting weight by a static calibration somehow.
Which, that's all too much BS for what it is so will never happen.
So........in conclusion............because internet, your experience may vary.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
The GMAN wrote:
I rode at the high end of w/kg for my class and was dead last in the last race I did. The top guys averaged about 40% higher w/kg than the max recommended for the class. I had zero plans to go balls out and was just getting a workout in. So I didn't mind getting smashed. That stated, if the class range is 2.5 to 3.2 (Class C) and the top half of the class rides at 4.0 to 4.5... what's the fucking point?I'm not sure the last time you raced or what races you are doing, but this is not a significant problem from what I've seen. Anyone exceeding the recommended range is disqualified after the race and/or automatically upgraded. Yes, they can screw up race dynamics a bit if people try to chase them, but it's much less of an issue than it used to be. Certainly nowhere near 50% of the field. If they are obvious sandbaggers, they are often shamed by the group and that tends to shut it down (or at least stops the chasing). Maybe 2-5 sandbaggers per race in the B's and C's in the last 10 races I've done. It's just part of the race strategy. If you see a C hanging in the lead group (which takes ~4w/kg+ to just suck wheel), you know they will either get dropped quickly or DQ'd for being over power.
If you are near the top of the w/kg range for a group and not finishing in the top 5, you are doing it wrong.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [burnthesheep]
[ In reply to ]
burnthesheep wrote:
So, it's totally fake then.
Well duh. :)
Quote:
The only time that one or two guys will break from a somewhat competent peloton is in a crit course where the course is short enough that a one or two person break can lap the entire field and catch the draft at the back of the pack. Or a hill climb.Small breaks happen on all kinds of courses. (in real life). The success of the break depends on the people in the race just as much as the course. I'll leave at the bottom of this post a video of an attack by Colin Strickland in a Red Hook Crit. That was near the beginning of the race, and everyone just said, "Whatever, dude." He never came back. But never lapped the field. The video is from the bike of "Crit King" Daniel Holloway.
Quote:
they would require you to only Zwift with a real power meter and link your USAC or UCI account to your Zwift account for categorization. Then figure out some kind of method of inputting weight by a static calibration somehow. Which, that's all too much BS for what it is so will never happen.
It's already happening in some race series within Zwift. There are sanctioning bodies being organized, along with methods of validating power output (real-life race licenses, real-life power files, etc). For example check out the rules on this league, particularly the efforts of the Zwift Power Verification Group
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [burnthesheep]
[ In reply to ]
burnthesheep wrote:
bluto wrote:
I don't think I've ever done a race where the start wasn't stupid fast. It's usually the most selective "move" of the race. Think of it as the early break of the day, but it never gets caught.So, it's totally fake then.
The only time that one or two guys will break from a somewhat competent peloton is in a crit course where the course is short enough that a one or two person break can lap the entire field and catch the draft at the back of the pack. Or a hill climb.
From what I've seen others doing (complaining online, watching youtube vids of races, etc....), it is NOT something I'm really interested in yet as the physics and grouping of riders seems to belie reality.
Breaks are math on speed, time, watts, and number of riders in the break. It sounds like to me either there are some broken physics OR cheaters and sandbaggers.
Math here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-what-are-the-chances-of-breakaway-success/
Quote from other article on breaks:
"The break is a time-honored part of bicycle racing. It’s also a low-percentage game; especially today, breakaways are caught before the finish far more often than they succeed."
On getting dropped: if the race is properly comprised of equal CAT individuals, you'll only really get dropped if there are climbs that shatter the group. Even then, unless you're way over your head, you would be in one of the "Selections" over the climb, meaning groups making it over around the same time and regrouping on the other side. Usually the second selection can catch the first with enough time to the finish assuming the first selection wasn't too large.
I do believe Zwift is a microcosm of the real cycling scene. I guess you get a higher percent of stronger riders versus local B, A, and A+ group rides simply because you are paying money and spending money on extra equipment to ride/race online. That effort to entry will weed out a lot of more below average and average riders.
But........having done real world rides from anything with 4 people to 250 people and someone or a group breaks out.........the thing you see of one, two, or three people managing an epic wattage break that stays away in Zwift is more fantasy when you compare it to the stats of breaks in the real world.
In an ideal world, meaning Zwift wouldn't have to worry about making money, they would require you to only Zwift with a real power meter and link your USAC or UCI account to your Zwift account for categorization. Then figure out some kind of method of inputting weight by a static calibration somehow.
Which, that's all too much BS for what it is so will never happen.
So........in conclusion............because internet, your experience may vary.
f course it's fake, it's a computer game.
That said, there are a lot of aspects that parallel real racing. I've done a good bit of real road racing, crits, and TT's and Zwift racing takes some key aspects from all of them.
Where it's unrealistic:
- The draft is significant, but not as significant as real pack racing, particularly on the flat sections. You even have to pedal a bit when going down a 8% grade or a gap will form in front of you. It definitely favors strong TT-type riders. True sprinters without big engines will never make it to the end to use their sprint.
- There is no wind and no real positioning in the field related to cross/tail/head wind. This is one of the biggest factors in real racing and I wish they would at least work in head and tail winds into Zwift.
- You have a lot of insight into what other riders are doing. You can see the real-time power and time gaps to racers in front and behind you. I like this, but it's not realistic.
- Everything is "smoothed". You can do very well by just holding a constant high power. The draft has a "stickyness" to it that keeps packs somewhat organized rather than a complete flowing mess. This can hurt you when trying to get by the rider in front of you (or passing slower traffic), but also can help when coming out of corners or with surges. Gaps don't form as easily as real racing and they are easier to close when still small. Once a real gaps is formed, it's every bit as dire as the real world.
-Power ups (feather, whatever). Hate them. Don't use them. Wish they would get rid of them in races.
All that said, many real world tactics/concepts translate very well.
-Pack dynamics vs. small break aways are very real. It's very hard to get away from a group who is marking you unless you are on a significant hill.
-If you get away at the right time, it requires a group with a bit of conviction and/or organization to chase you down.
-If you find yourself in a pack at the end, sprint timing tactics apply and the draft is a huge factor at the high speeds.
It's certainly not the same as real outdoor racing, but it's a lot more fun than anything else I do on the trainer.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [bluto]
[ In reply to ]
bluto wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
I rode at the high end of w/kg for my class and was dead last in the last race I did. The top guys averaged about 40% higher w/kg than the max recommended for the class. I had zero plans to go balls out and was just getting a workout in. So I didn't mind getting smashed. That stated, if the class range is 2.5 to 3.2 (Class C) and the top half of the class rides at 4.0 to 4.5... what's the fucking point?I'm not sure the last time you raced or what races you are doing, but this is not a significant problem from what I've seen. Anyone exceeding the recommended range is disqualified after the race and/or automatically upgraded. Yes, they can screw up race dynamics a bit if people try to chase them, but it's much less of an issue than it used to be. Certainly nowhere near 50% of the field. If they are obvious sandbaggers, they are often shamed by the group and that tends to shut it down (or at least stops the chasing). Maybe 2-5 sandbaggers per race in the B's and C's in the last 10 races I've done. It's just part of the race strategy. If you see a C hanging in the lead group (which takes ~4w/kg+ to just suck wheel), you know they will either get dropped quickly or DQ'd for being over power.
If you are near the top of the w/kg range for a group and not finishing in the top 5, you are doing it wrong.
Did a race yesterday in which I dropped down to D and purposely rode at the high end of C. I finished in the middle of the pack of the D race with high end C power. So once again... what's the point of the cat system if I can ride at the max limit of the cat above me and still can't get a whiff of the top of my cat's race? Again... I really don't care at all about the race but the absurdity of it.
Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
The GMAN wrote:
Did a race yesterday in which I dropped down to D and purposely rode at the high end of C. I finished in the middle of the pack of the D race with high end C power. So once again... what's the point of the cat system if I can ride at the max limit of the cat above me and still can't get a whiff of the top of my cat's race? Again... I really don't care at all about the race but the absurdity of it.I'm sure in the final results you were filtered into the C Category, if you remember the race you did, you can check on zwiftpower.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [MRid]
[ In reply to ]
FWIW there is a guy literally at the top of the hill from my house in town. Don't know the guy at all personally. I started following him on Strava because we've swapped KOM's a few times locally.
He Zwift's like crazy during winter, I don't think I've seen him post an outdoor ride since November even though we live in the south.
I notice all the time he has all these Zwift wins coming up in Strava with these ludicrous 1-hour weighted avg powers during I guess about 1-hour Zwift races.
Suddenly you see a post online lamenting something about how he had been using the wrong trainer setup the entire time because his wasn't even on a list.
Pretty much totally bogus power and results.
I simply cannot get into something that is totally "fake". If you're the right "median" fitness level and not an idiot in a pack, you won't get dropped from your local group ride or race.
You guys have convinced me that I would rather watch GCN show or Netflix while on a trainer than pay a monthly fee to get thrashed around in Zwift with all of this crap.
He Zwift's like crazy during winter, I don't think I've seen him post an outdoor ride since November even though we live in the south.
I notice all the time he has all these Zwift wins coming up in Strava with these ludicrous 1-hour weighted avg powers during I guess about 1-hour Zwift races.
Suddenly you see a post online lamenting something about how he had been using the wrong trainer setup the entire time because his wasn't even on a list.
Pretty much totally bogus power and results.
I simply cannot get into something that is totally "fake". If you're the right "median" fitness level and not an idiot in a pack, you won't get dropped from your local group ride or race.
You guys have convinced me that I would rather watch GCN show or Netflix while on a trainer than pay a monthly fee to get thrashed around in Zwift with all of this crap.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [MRid]
[ In reply to ]
MRid wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
Did a race yesterday in which I dropped down to D and purposely rode at the high end of C. I finished in the middle of the pack of the D race with high end C power. So once again... what's the point of the cat system if I can ride at the max limit of the cat above me and still can't get a whiff of the top of my cat's race? Again... I really don't care at all about the race but the absurdity of it.I'm sure in the final results you were filtered into the C Category, if you remember the race you did, you can check on zwiftpower.
I’m sure you’re right but again... what’s the point of the self selecting Cat system when more than half the Cat rides at or above the max range of the Cat a whole level higher? It’s just stupid. Basically half the D race rode in the B range.
Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
I understand your point, and it has merit. But right now, online racing is really in it's early days. The amount of improvements that Zwift has made in just the last few months has been great. Third party sites like ZwiftPower, ZwiftRanking and ZADA make it even more interesting and enjoyable. Race participation appears to be growing (I don't have hard evidence for this, just anecdotally, the races I've done are bigger), and I really think this is something that has the potential to appeal to people outside of the traditional sports of triathlon/cycling. I'd like to see Zwift open up an actual public API to allow better development by third parties and I'd like to see Zwift handle things like category management better. (I mean they have your history, so it is at least possible to know if someone should not be entering the C category) But I feel like alot of this will continue to improve over time.
Obviously to each their own, but to me, and a growing amount of others, racing online is a fun, convenient way to scratch that competitive itch and it's relatively inexpensive. And it's an experience I think is going to continue to get better and better.
Obviously to each their own, but to me, and a growing amount of others, racing online is a fun, convenient way to scratch that competitive itch and it's relatively inexpensive. And it's an experience I think is going to continue to get better and better.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [burnthesheep]
[ In reply to ]
burnthesheep wrote:
Suddenly you see a post online lamenting something about how he had been using the wrong trainer setup the entire time because his wasn't even on a list.
Most races (if not all) disqualify anyone using zPower automatically from the results. You can tell who is using zPower because they won't have a lightning bolt signifying power meter or smart trainer next to their w/kg number. Most savvy racers on zwift will not chase these guys and will just let them ride off. If it looks like the pack is trying to reel them in, I've seen it called out live in the chat like: "so and so is on zP, let 'em go".
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [The GMAN]
[ In reply to ]
I thought about this, and I don't know if you were doing this, but if I entered a race in the C category (3.2 w/kg cutoff) and raced at an even 3.5 w/kg I would not finish in the top half. So even though I put out an average (in this case steady) power above the category, I finished in the bottom half. This is because 3.5 w/kg in the beginning won't make one of the lead packs, and as such you will finish behind them, even though the pack is putting out a lower w/kg output.
Again I don't know if this is what you were doing, just something I thought about.
Again I don't know if this is what you were doing, just something I thought about.
Re: Zwift Race with warm up lap, WTF [RCCo]
[ In reply to ]
RCCo wrote:
telling myself that I am valiantly leading the "second group".. (3 minutes back....)Haha! I always promise my legs that they don't have to swim later that night if they hang on just a little longer. I always lie to them though; they never learn ;-)
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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm
'Obviously to each their own, but to me, and a growing amount of others, racing online is a fun, convenient way to scratch that competitive itch and it's relatively inexpensive. And it's an experience I think is going to continue to get better and better. '
Same, I've been racing the ZHR masters series and it's been a lot of fun and they are tough rides. Now and then you see someone who is doing some wacky stuff but they usually get either DQ'd or at least excluded from results.
I'm usually just happy to have gotten in a hard ride that was entertaining and super time efficient.
Same, I've been racing the ZHR masters series and it's been a lot of fun and they are tough rides. Now and then you see someone who is doing some wacky stuff but they usually get either DQ'd or at least excluded from results.
I'm usually just happy to have gotten in a hard ride that was entertaining and super time efficient.