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Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!?
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I saw a number of 550,000 accounts from a report in 2018 for Zwift, how many of those do you think are paid accounts? Just doing the math, even if half the accounts are paid at $15 a month they are bringing in over 4 million per month? Why is it so shitty then? The graphics are bad, custom workouts need to be created with special programming knowledge, racing is just mashing as hard as you can no tactics whatsoever, running is a joke even years after the initial launch...that number can't be real or they are squandering a lot of resources. And they recently laid people off to "refocus" on developing new hardware? Help me wrap my head around that...
Last edited by: mbecks2: Jul 20, 20 12:02
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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I think Zwift is awesome - $15 is a deal.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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mbecks2 wrote:
I saw a number of 550,000 accounts from a report in 2018 for Zwift, how many of those do you think are paid accounts? Just doing the math, even if half the accounts are paid at $15 a month they are bringing in over 4 million per month? Why is it so shitty then? The graphics are bad, custom workouts need to be created with special programming knowledge, racing is just mashing as hard as you can no tactics whatsoever, running is a joke even years after the initial launch...that number can't be real or they are squandering a lot of resources. And they recently laid people off to "refocus" on developing new hardware? Help me wrap my head around that...

Dont know about the number but i could be accounts since Zwift launched so a lot less than those 550k are actually active/paying.

Oh you forgot the horrible UI
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, well worth the money for me.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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From a business perspective, I honestly think they could charge $20-50 per month and still make more profits than $15 month with some customers dropping.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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plant_based wrote:
I think Zwift is awesome - $15 is a deal.

Every group certainly has work to do. For what it is, $15 is a deal IMHO.

It's a totally different ballgame from presenting a pretty basic UI for a database dump of people's sports data.......ala Strava.

I'm just a cheap ass in general. Strava is less than a coffee a month. Zwift is two "venti" drinks a month. Big deal.

I'm about to bite it and pay Strava after all my complaining since I'm starting to miss out on viewing segment results for local TT stuff (I will NOT be in the top 10 for).
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:

Oh you forgot the horrible UI

It's not that bad, in my opinion. But I'm mystified why after years of development, if I want to do back-to-back events I have to completely exit the application after the first one. Or why I can't go to event locations directly instead of first going somewhere else before joining an event. (which sucks if you're in a rush to join an event that's about to start.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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Big video game publishers like EA and Ubisoft burn through a billion dollars a year in expenses. So in comparison Zwift is very tiny and doesn't really bring in much.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
if I want to do back-to-back events I have to completely exit the application after the first one. Or why I can't go to event locations directly instead of first going somewhere else before joining an event. (which sucks if you're in a rush to join an event that's about to start.

Yeah, these are both good points. I couldn't even figure out how to join an event when I started using it and the time passed and nothing happened. I hit join on companion and then saw no option to join the event. It took me a minute to figure out I had to get on a random course and then join when the popup alerted the event start.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [nightfend] [ In reply to ]
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nightfend wrote:
Big video game publishers like EA and Ubisoft burn through a billion dollars a year in expenses. So in comparison Zwift is very tiny and doesn't really bring in much.

While technically they might be a publisher, I would liken Zwift to more of a studio
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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mbecks2 wrote:
I saw a number of 550,000 accounts from a report in 2018 for Zwift, how many of those do you think are paid accounts? Just doing the math, even if half the accounts are paid at $15 a month they are bringing in over 4 million per month? Why is it so shitty then? The graphics are bad, custom workouts need to be created with special programming knowledge, racing is just mashing as hard as you can no tactics whatsoever, running is a joke even years after the initial launch...that number can't be real or they are squandering a lot of resources. And they recently laid people off to "refocus" on developing new hardware? Help me wrap my head around that...



Engineers cost a lot of money, marketing costs more.


The 550,000 number from then was accounts created at the time, not actual paying users. But, given things have moved forward a bit, we'll call it even and use that number as a base.


So, $15 * 550,000 = $8,250,000/month


That's what they get income-wise, plus any sponsorship/exclusivity/marketing type deals. That's worth something for sure, but not anywhere near the subs number.


Now, they've got somewhere in the ballpark of 300 employees these days. So, using a simple $150,000/year figure as an average (base will be lower for some, but overall it'd be higher than that once you account for benefits/etc...) - that means they need to rake in roughly $45 million, or roughly $3,750,000/month. And that ignores any tax liabilities.


The challenge is marketing. And that’s where Zwift spends deep, and always has. All those events around the world in bikes shops (well, until recently anyways). Spending big at trade shows. Spending big for TV adverts and buying out millions of views on YouTube adverts. For example, if you look at Zwift’s channel and sort backwards by most popular videos*, you’ll see it’s all 30-31 second adverts, upwards of nearly 5 million views. That’s not people going to watch those videos organically, that’s Zwift using those videos as YouTube adverts on other videos. That costs money. How much? Not a ton in the grand scheme of things, but that’s just one channel. There’s likely similiar spend on other platforms. The same goes for takeovers of various online sites you see, which is expensive, quick.

Then there’s the cost of paying the various athletes they sponsor, as well as other communities they support. Then there’s costs related to the various events that Zwift puts on that are larger-scale (such as the recent TdF ones). Now, some of these Zwift also has revenue from, such as bike brand sponsors or trainer sponsors – so there’s some revenue there too.

Plus finally, normal operational costs. They’ve got super-expensive real-estate in downtown Long Beach, plus offices in Europe. They’ve got server costs to deal with, broadcast equipment costs, costs of stuff like infrastructure, etc… It all adds up.

Ultimately though, the spend that Zwift lays out in marketing related efforts is massive – especially in the lens compared to any other company out there. One only has to go to a Zwift event (which are always exceedingly well run), to see that.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
Last edited by: dcrainmaker: Jul 20, 20 12:38
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker wrote:


Engineers cost a lot of money, marketing costs more.

The challenge is marketing. And that’s where Zwift spends deep, and always has.

Yeah, marketing is expensive and its often difficult to discern how effective the marketing channels are in comparison to revenue increases.

Another part of the challenge for Zwift is that their marketing can't really go to end users who say in a 'turnkey' style, 'well I'll just get Zwift', if they don't have the hardware. Zwift isn't just a 'widget' that people can go buy. Zwift has to have targeted marketing efforts to those who basically have all of the equipment except maybe a trainer and Zwift.

So their potential market is already limited from the start.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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I was a big marketing event/party last fall that they did together with Wahoo, so that makes perfect sense.
I don't think that the OP is complaining about the $15, it's how lousy the UI and experience is that you get for that $15.
At least that is my take

----------------------------
http://www.instagram.com/cyclewise
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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Dude if you think Zwift is overpriced at $15. then Trainerroad is an outright ripoff at $20/month, with next to no updates on their triathlon plans (some of which are broken imo) for many years. $20 for a graphing program and a crappy plan = terrible deal in my book.

I used to love TR and cheer them on, but I absolutely can't do so as a triathlete after the complete neglect to the triathlon community regarding their core compentence for a tri-user, which is a triathlon-bike plan.

I'm sure it's better for pure roadies, as that seems to be their 100% focus.

Zwift for $15 offers soooo much. Social, racing, gamified worlds, training plans, group workouts, special events that are actually pretty cool, the list goes on and on.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 20, 20 13:23
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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mbecks2 wrote:
, custom workouts need to be created with special programming knowledge..

And my pity for you ends there. Does your mommy still tie your shoe laces?
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [trener1] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a specific reason the UI is the way it is? Why no main Home screen where you can accomplish necessary things pre-ride? Why start with equipment pairing before anything else? Let me do that, adjust in-game equipment, user preferences, etc at one start-up location. Is there some obvious reason that doesn't exist??
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [mbecks2] [ In reply to ]
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Add me to the list of people above that feel Zwift is a downright bargain for $15 per month. I have no issue with the less-than-real graphics, which are better than anything else I've tried or seen.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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Signal8 wrote:
Add me to the list of people above that feel Zwift is a downright bargain for $15 per month. I have no issue with the less-than-real graphics, which are better than anything else I've tried or seen.

Which part of the OP is about whether $15 is a good or bad price?

I agree that with the amount of money they are raking in they should spend some of it bringing the graphics and UI into the 21st century. Have you seen the GTA bicycle interface, now that's what the graphics should be doing.

Spending millions on advertising is a waste, anyone who is in anyway remotely involved in tri or cycling knows about or will be told about Zwift through word of mouth
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Signal8 wrote:
Add me to the list of people above that feel Zwift is a downright bargain for $15 per month. I have no issue with the less-than-real graphics, which are better than anything else I've tried or seen.


Which part of the OP is about whether $15 is a good or bad price?

I agree that with the amount of money they are raking in they should spend some of it bringing the graphics and UI into the 21st century. Have you seen the GTA bicycle interface, now that's what the graphics should be doing.

Spending millions on advertising is a waste, anyone who is in anyway remotely involved in tri or cycling knows about or will be told about Zwift through word of mouth

I'll stipulate to the fact that the GTA graphics are on another level compared to Zwift, but that game is much much wider circulation than anything Zwift will ever offer. I haven't tired the GTA/GTB mod, but I watched videos by GPlama and Chris Pritchard. Sure the graphics looked cool, but the whole thing seemed very unstable and kept crashing and needing to be restarted constantly.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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Signal8 wrote:
dunno wrote:
Signal8 wrote:
Add me to the list of people above that feel Zwift is a downright bargain for $15 per month. I have no issue with the less-than-real graphics, which are better than anything else I've tried or seen.


Which part of the OP is about whether $15 is a good or bad price?

I agree that with the amount of money they are raking in they should spend some of it bringing the graphics and UI into the 21st century. Have you seen the GTA bicycle interface, now that's what the graphics should be doing.

Spending millions on advertising is a waste, anyone who is in anyway remotely involved in tri or cycling knows about or will be told about Zwift through word of mouth

I'll stipulate to the fact that the GTA graphics are on another level compared to Zwift, but that game is much much wider circulation than anything Zwift will ever offer. I haven't tired the GTA/GTB mod, but I watched videos by GPlama and Chris Pritchard. Sure the graphics looked cool, but the whole thing seemed very unstable and kept crashing and needing to be restarted constantly.

Thats because it was a hack by a developer, not an official GTA 'bolt on'.

I don't think anyone would expect Zwifts graphics to be on the same level but for a platform that already looks horribly dated they had better be investing in the future.

Sure their current offering might cut it with 45+ year old mamils who think anything better than Atari space invaders is cutting edge but the next generation won't be as forgiving and will leave the door way open for a competitor.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously, the graphics are NOT bad. They are actually quite excellent, albeit there is always room for improvement.

On my Macbook Pro, it runs in 4k, and is buttery smooth, with high detail. It looks pretty friggin' awesome. Things like shadows, sun flares, rain, etc are all captured beautifully.

If you're saying it looks Atarilike, you should be seriously questioning your hardware setup which is likely at fault. What are you running it on, anyway?
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, a modded version of GTA tends to crash. No surprise. No one is saying that mod is better than Zwift. My frustrations with Zwift graphics are because I can download Call of Duty Warfare for free and it has insanely better graphics. Granted I dont want Zwift to go to the microtransactions model that all games seems to be going towards. However, let's say I buy Doom Eternal (or any other recent AAA game) full price at $60. That's 4 months of Zwift month fees, but I get insanely better graphics and multiplayer. You can't really defend Zwift graphics when you compare it to any modern game.

I'm not asking for the latest and greatest graphics, but can I get at least get an upgrade for how much I shell out each year? I dont care about them marketing and putting on events. I want my money to go to improving my experience. Every cyclist/triathlete on the planet knows about Zwift after a global pandemic. I typically cancel Zwift in the summer but the pandemic has me keeping it.
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
Seriously, the graphics are NOT bad. They are actually quite excellent, albeit there is always room for improvement.

On my Macbook Pro, it runs in 4k, and is buttery smooth, with high detail. It looks pretty friggin' awesome. Things like shadows, sun flares, rain, etc are all captured beautifully.

If you're saying it looks Atarilike, you should be seriously questioning your hardware setup which is likely at fault. What are you running it on, anyway?

I didn't say it looked Atari like, I was inferring a generation who were raised on Atari may be easily pleased. The next generation not so much.

If you are impressed by shadows and sun flares then I rest my case..
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [Rage KG] [ In reply to ]
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Updating graphics then you slash the user base big time cause not all have high end equipment. I like rouvy but it crashes too much for me even during races
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Re: Zwift Accounts x $15 mthly ?!? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously, what is lacking in this Zwift image? What would you improve substantially here to make it a lot better?

This is straight from the Slowtwitch feature article on Zwift hardware and graphics. Includes youtube links for real-time game footage, which looks every bit as good.




This is not just good looking because of silly lens flares and shadows - the base graphics really do look good. Ok, if you don't like the cartoony look, that's your choice, but I can't see how you would call these graphics subpar or lacking

And on my Macbook pro, it runs essentially completely stutter-free so long as the internet connection is good.

Also - I do play modern FPS games. I know what the current-gen graphics in AAA FPS and other games look like, and yes, they are better than Zwift. But I would strongly disagree to say Zwift look bad in any way. It would be no different than critiquing the graphics of Rocket League as inferior, when in reality it does what it does very, very well even if it's not the same as the most current-gen FPS.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 20, 20 15:12
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