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Zipp wheel questions
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So I recently purchased a 2013 Cervelo S5 as my primary race bike and am considering adding some new Zipp FC carbon clinchers to my noble steed, either 404s or 808s. I just wanted some outside input before I drop the dollars for the wheels.
Background: I am 150 lbs, bike handling skills are decent, but improving (call it 6/10), I race mainly sprint and olympic distance with some being draft-legal races, I see some hills in my area but most of my races tend to be flat/rolling, I will not use the wheels for training very often(1-2 times per month).

My pros and cons:
808/808 pros- Faster, look more badass than 404s
cons- More difficult to handle in strong winds, slightly heavier
404/404 pros- Easier to handle, lighter, more versatile, also badass
cons- slightly slower

Talk me into or out of either set. I don't particularly like the look of the 606 combo, I prefer wheels with the same depth on road bikes.
Also, ever heard of any fit issues between the wide Zipps and the S5 when running 23cc tires? I know the 25cc tires are too large.

-------------
It never gets easier, you just go faster.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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404 front 808 rear would be the fastest, most stable option that has no risk of being tricky in the wind.

but you don't like how it looks so.... =)

Best bet is borrow/rent an 808 front on a windy day, take some fast descents, find out if it bugs you or not.

Other option - a 404 set and a wheel cover for your non drafting races.

All 23mm tires will fit on the S5, and some 25mm tires will too. The width doesn't really play into it, its the total 'height' of the tire which would interfere with the seat tube cutout.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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1st choice is 808/808, 2nd choice would be 404/808...I'd pick the first...I used to run the 1080 up front....lol!

tire width is irrelevant--that said, you best bet is to run 21mm up front and 23mm in the back....w/latex tubes!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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C_Lambrecht wrote:
So I recently purchased a 2013 Cervelo S5 as my primary race bike and am considering adding some new Zipp FC carbon clinchers to my noble steed, either 404s or 808s. I just wanted some outside input before I drop the dollars for the wheels.
Background: I am 150 lbs, bike handling skills are decent, but improving (call it 6/10), I race mainly sprint and olympic distance with some being draft-legal races, I see some hills in my area but most of my races tend to be flat/rolling, I will not use the wheels for training very often(1-2 times per month).

My pros and cons:
808/808 pros- Faster, look more badass than 404s
cons- More difficult to handle in strong winds, slightly heavier
404/404 pros- Easier to handle, lighter, more versatile, also badass
cons- slightly slower

Talk me into or out of either set. I don't particularly like the look of the 606 combo, I prefer wheels with the same depth on road bikes.
Also, ever heard of any fit issues between the wide Zipps and the S5 when running 23cc tires? I know the 25cc tires are too large.

I've got the s5 set up with 808fc's. iused to ride an s2 with the 404/808 setup and it felt great. That being said the full 808 set up is awesome. A little getting used to at first but its second nature handling in the wind now. im 6'2 195. you can't go wrong either way. save a little $ and go with the 606's. you'll be happy
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Jackmott, are you saying that the 404 front/808 rear combo is faster aerodynamically or faster because it is more stable?
Thanks for the advice everyone.

-------------
It never gets easier, you just go faster.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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Go for Flo wheels! ;-p

Sam
samgyde.com
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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So should he not use the Tangente butyl tubes that Zipp provides in the box the FC's?
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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C_Lambrecht wrote:
Jackmott, are you saying that the 404 front/808 rear combo is faster aerodynamically or faster because it is more stable?
Thanks for the advice everyone.

faster than a 404/404 aero wise
potentially more stable than a 404/404 as well in crosswinds.

Not that a 404/404 is likely to be hard to handle ever.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [323Runner] [ In reply to ]
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323Runner wrote:
So should he not use the Tangente butyl tubes that Zipp provides in the box the FC's?

they are not magic!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
323Runner wrote:
So should he not use the Tangente butyl tubes that Zipp provides in the box the FC's?


they are not magic!

Yeah true! I'm just curious as I have a 404 and Super 9 on order and was trying to figure out if I want to put my latex tubes from my H3's in them or use the Tangente's they will send me. I will likely use the latex and use the Tangente's for my training wheelset.
Thanks!
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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I bought 808 FC clinchers and loved them. Fast descents with a big crosswind were fine while solo, but had some pucker-factor in large packs.

I got some 404 FC tubies as part of a team deal and I haven't used the 808s in a mass start race since, but I still use the 808s for time trials since they should be slightly faster. If I had to choose to own one set or the other, the 404 tubies would win. If I had to choose between 404 clinchers and 808 clinchers, it would be a much closer call, but in your use case I would do the 808s. If you were doing more mass start crits/road races then I would go with the 404.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [323Runner] [ In reply to ]
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Butyl are fine. Latex potentially a tiny bit faster....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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Go ENVE 6.7... Be different...
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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C. Lambrecht,

Listen up: I am a very nasty mountain bike desender and I raced BMX for 15 years. With that said, I have excellent bike handling skills. I have been racing triathlon and road for the last 16 years and this spring I upgraded to a Trek Speed Concept with Bontrager Auelous 9's (Tubular.) Went on on my maiden voyage last week and this set-up was squirly as hell. It's will take me at least 20 rides to get it diald in, but beware, the double 8o8 -- or anything deep -- gives the bike a new warbly feel that you will be woken up to when bombing a hill. Wind is another day and another talk. With that said, take Jackmotts advice and do not go for the 'badass' look. Go for what works. The best set-up that I have ever owned and I AM WISHING that I didn't sell was my H3 front and HED Jet Disc rear. Even in very windy conditions that we have in Delmarva every day, the Disc will stabalize the bike. If you don't want a disc, then go 404/808...trust me trust me trust me! If you were good enough to handle it, you wouldn't have been on ST asking!

With that in mind, does anyone want to trade a near new bontrager auelous 9 front-tuby? I need something like a 7.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
404 front 808 rear would be the fastest, most stable option that has no risk of being tricky in the wind. quote]

...from this day forward, I will take your advice; my set-up right now (2 X 9's) would have killed most people!
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
Butyl are fine. Latex definitely faster....

Fixed that one for you.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Butyl are fine. Latex potentially a tiny bit faster....

WHAT???!!!

Go look at Al Morrison's rolling resistance charts and compare same tires tested with latex tubes vs. butyl tubes. The differences are NOT tiny. In some cases, they're 3 watts! That's per tire. I guess they're fine if you participate in races. They're not fine if you race.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely, unless they flat like they did for me at IMAZ last year--1st time I used latex and first flat I ever had in a race (at least in my first 126 triathlons!)

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
Definitely, unless they flat like they did for me at IMAZ last year--1st time I used latex and first flat I ever had in a race (at least in my first 126 triathlons!)

My guess is installation error.

But, removing the possibility of a flat (which, from what I can tell is actually LESSER with latex tubes as they somewhat "self-seal"), latex is significantly faster than butyl. That's science.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is nail....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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Well that makes your argument even weaker! A butyl tube would've flatted as well.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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I'd advise that you go 404/808 if you're determined to go Zipp. I'm about your size and I know how both of those sets of wheels handle. One thing I'll guarantee you is that you will be faster on the wheels on which you are more confident and I'd bet dollars to donuts that, if there's much wind, that's going to be the 404 up front. Having confidence to attack the course without fear/reservations will make more difference than the aero difference between a 404 and an 808 up front.

Here's an alternate suggestion, though. Bontrager Aeolus D3 7s front and rear. Amazing wheels. Kinda split the difference between the 404 and the 808 in terms of depth and crosswind handling. Per their test data, as good as the 808 FC. Better hubs in my opinion. LOVE these wheels. Best I've ever owned.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [Tri or Die] [ In reply to ]
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Got to agree on this one. My local tri shop (thanks TriBella) has been letting me demo wheels the past couple of weeks to decide between a 404 and 808 (actually a Reynolds 81) set up for my Shiv.

Bottom line: the 404s were super predicable all around wheels. I barely noticed they were there. Bombing down a long descent on deeper wheels was dodgy in mild cross winds (comparatively).

I went with the 404s and I'm extremely happy. Did the Boulder M-dot course this past weekend on them with winds gusting to 50mph and they were great. Not a moment of regret on my choice.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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not arguing anything....just reporting real world results....fun to speculate on what might have happened in some other world but thats just speculation. I'm aware of, fully understand and believe the science...as an example:

" I will agree that there are benefits to a latex inner tube and paired with a suitable tire they can be felt by most competent riders. The benefit comes in the form of better rolling resistance due to better or faster elasticity. When rolling, the tube is compressed and then, as it rolls along it springs back to its original profile. At the contact point the tire has a portion of its profile squashed to the road, obviously tire pressure and profile all factor in but as it is rolling the section that is leaving contact has to bounce back, the quicker this happens the less contact patch there is and by default the less drag. Latex is like a huge tight spring and it snaps back quickly. Butyl on the other hand acts like a hydraulic shock and bounces back slowly and in a controlled way, the energy is absorbed along with the heat.
Other benefits include better feel when generally riding, for the reasons mentioned above, the tube also benefits cornering and basic feel.

A few things to consider when running Latex tubes.

· Compared to butyl air leeches out quicker from a latex tube. Get used to pumping them up before the event to ensure proper psi.
· Because of the high permeation rate, as mentioned above, do not use CO2 to inflate them. CO2 permeates through latex much quicker than regular air which is predominantly nitrogen.
· They are lighter than a regular butyl tube, although some of the ultra-lite butyl are comparable. I have never been a big fan of the ultra-lite butyl tubes, they are extremely flimsy and the failure rate on them is very high which in my opinion negates any gain, especially on race day. Latex tubes in comparison, despite their delicate nature are surprisingly durable. They will shrug off lots of abuse. They will find any weaknesses in your rim tape though so be careful to install good tape well.
A standard Latex tube.

A latex tube will be beneficial to any good road race tire to a certain degree. That gain can vary from about 1.2 watts to about 2.8watts. Using a supple, high thread count tire makes a big difference. On tires utilizing some form of protective aramid belt or a thicker rubber tread the benefit will be considerably less.
Over the years latex has been definitely pushed under a rock when it comes to bicycle inner tubes and, honestly, that is probably the best for most riders. Butyl is much more suitable to the needs of most cyclists. It is thick and offers a little more protection and durability than latex. Butyl holds air better, it still needs topping off regularly but compared to latex it is significantly less permeable.
Latex still has a place though, for those riders looking for ultimate performance from body and machine latex tubes can be a benefit. At this level any performance gain is always minimal but it is there. Running a quality latex tube in a quality race tire on race day is another of those gains."

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Zipp wheel questions [C_Lambrecht] [ In reply to ]
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I would go 808 if you plan on doing races only. If you plan on using them for races only...why not go tubulars? 808 clinchers are on the heavy side.

Crosswinds are something that you have to experience first to decide if you can handle the deeper wheels. Maybe demo a set of 808's first?

________________
Cervelo S2/Zipp 404
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