808 = 82 mm front + 82mm Rear (or, get a disc and it = 999)

404 = 58 mm front and 58 mm rear (or a disc = 909)

What does it mean to you?

$$$$$! :-)

---

__________________________________________________

808-404=404

twice the sex appeal = twice the sex.



think about it!

---

---

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

But the 909 is only tubular, correct? And 808's are available in clincher.

what's the real difference...

about 10 seconds over 40k.



as for tubies vs. clincher...something tells me no...but i hope i'm wrong.



YES. I WOULD BUY 808's AS CLINCHERS!!! MWAHAHAHA....

although...since the 909 is tubular only...something tells me the 808 is similar...

---

---

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

you can get 808 as a clincher. It's the disc that is always a tubular

---

__________________________________________________

wickedness.

---

---

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

My thoughts exactly...that is why I run a HED jet deep front (90 mm) and a HED disc (Poor man's Zipp) It doesn't compare in weight or dimples, but they do their jobs and they're both clinchers.

---

__________________________________________________

i'm currently running a renn 575 (that frank kindly upgraded on warranty...God bless that man) as well as a spinergy PBO tillium up front. Cost me about 1000 CDN, which is close to what the zipp front would cost me. the zipp may be nicer...have huge sex appeal...but until i get a job (still a student), i think i'm going to be riding the ones i've got.

that, and i'd prefer to buy a road bike before i 'upgrade' wheels.

---

---

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

it means about 1 bike length for the avg slowtwitcher over 40k. Or the same distance that an extra 5k running per week would gain someone.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

See--that is sort of the plan that is coming together. Move the Velomax Vista wheels from my P2K to my Cannondale CAAD4 road bike frame. Buy Zipps for my P2K.

[reply]it means about 1 bike length for the avg slowtwitcher over 40k. Or the same distance that an extra 5k running per week would gain someone.[/reply]

Brian, I'm disappointed - I expected "it's about 3:20 less than spending the same amount on a good swim coach would get you". ;)

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

well...if you're already in the zipp price range...the difference isn't huge i guess.

that said...you could do it a lot cheaper and get pretty much the same effect.

as a member of this board, i suppose it's a given that i'm a fan of Renn, but after using the disc and seeing the customer service, that'd be my route if i had to do it again.

throwing the disc on the back (esp. the new madiera @<1000g) and then maybe get something 'fancy' up front would save you some coin.

however, if $$$ isn't an issue...go balls out...they look facking hot. and it's the new and fancy toy. you'll have ladies drooling over you and guys wanting to be you.

---

---

"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

If I knew a good swim coach, I would spend a little there, as well.

My friend races with a Hed 3 up front and Renn in the rear - clinchers. This choice is a much better value.

I race with 909's so tubular 404 up front and zipp disc in the rear. This choice is sexier.

Its a coin flip which is faster in my opinion. I'd take 909's over 808's but 909's are tubular so you'd have to be willing to go that route.....I'd imagine the 808 front would catch more wind but I'm a big fan of always running a disc. You could always get a clincher 404 or 808 for the front and a clincher (Renn or Hed disc for the rear but they wouldn't match.....).

I think clinchers are fine for race wheels and in a lot of ways makes more sense for most people - familiarity with changing flats and its easy to carry a couple spare tubes. You can get lighter with tubulars but thats not worth much in my opinion.....if you go tubular you have to go through the glue vs. tape debate - and spare tubulars are big and bulky....

The one big advantage of a Hed 3 up front is that I hear the things are very strong so less worries hammering over bumps/railroad tracks....in races. If I hit something on my 909's I worry a little and I'll bike a little more conservative in races in places (not necessarily a good thing). I've heard a lot about speed wobbles with Hed 3's but not sure if thats a real thing or not.

One other thing to consider is power meters - will you ever get one? Will you race with one? It makes race wheels more complicated depending on which you get. I'd get a power meter before I bought race wheels......Race wheels are sexy and cool and fun to look at but not worth all that much in the real world in my opinion.....and the differences between good race wheels is very very small.

Dave

An extra 5k running per week - say that's about an extra 20 mins per week. Assuming the typical Slowtwitcher earns about 80k per year, that's about $40 per hour, so an extra 5k running per week costs about $13 per week. The Zipp wheelset is about an extra $1000 over the reasonably priced H3/Renn option. 1000/13 = 75 weeks, or about 1.5 years. Therefore, if you keep the Zipps for over 1.5 years, you're saving yourself money compared to running an extra 5k per week. C'mon - Zipps are the logical choice.

Thanks Dave--I train with power on the CT, but I don't have that info on a outside ride. I'm OK with that.

This is what Zipp posted on the forum last fall.

404 weight: 1290gm, aero advantage 2-4 seconds per 40k over last years 404, 2-6 seconds over popular 3 spoke

606 weight: 1345gm, aero advantage 10-12 seconds per 40k over new 404

808 weight: 1395gm, aero advantage 12-14 seconds per 40k over 606

909 weight: 1535gm, aero advantage: 0-2 seconds over 808, but 4-6 seconds faster in 16mph cross wind

999 weight: 1585gm, aero advantage: 14-16 seconds per 40k over 606

Monk -

You are compounding problems again my friend. We need a to hash all this out in one thread!!!!

Anyhoo, if you are remotely considering becoming a roadie, I'd hope you chose race wheels that can pull double duty.....and you'll need another set of training wheels.

With that said, you can not road race a disc or a Hed 3. But, you can race an 808...although a few guys would scratch their head.

I'd start off with a 404 set and then buy a disc (preferably a Zipp, but any would do) when the time/$$$$ become available.

I still want a foot update...is it dry yet?

Monk,

I happen to know someone who is a rather talented technique coach in the phoenix area. Many of his swimmers got paid to go to D1 schools, some won events at Sr. nationals (that may be due to more than just good technique though) and a couple qualifed for Olympic trials.


To Khai's point a good swim coach can save you more than any set of race wheels ever will.

---

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

the difference is 404

Personally, I think thereis alot more to consider here than just aero. By going to a 606 I save about a 1lb on my training wheels (Kysrium Elite). I would think that helps me go a bit faster as well. Besides that a tubular tire rides a hell of alot nicer IMHO than a clincher which in turn leads to faster times. All in all.... I think you are looking at a pretty significant time benefit for a decent AGer.

I just bought an 808 with a PT Pro hub...that's the main reason why I went 808 instead of a disc. That, and I live and race in a super-hilly area, with plenty of cross winds. Is a disc faster? I'd say of course. HOwever, I wanted a PT hub in my race wheel, don't like the idea of bolting or otherwise strapping something over my heavy training wheel (just seems like it's begging fly off in the middle of a race), and the wind and hills have to be taken into consideration.

Plus, the 606 setup is damn sexy, IMHO.

Monk,

go for the 606 wheelset, its a 404 in the front and an 808 in the rear. Ive got a set and I love them, the 404 front wont grab the wind like the HED wheels or others and the 808 in the back is just as fast as a disk plus you can ride it on really windy conditions. And the 808 makes a sweet noise when you pass people, so Im told when they catch up to me, ha.

I ride with them all the time and have had no problems, go for the tubular version and get some Tufo's with the extreme tape and youll never go back to clinchers again. It takes about 5minutes to properly mount the tire on the rim, it is that easy, plus no more pinch flats, heck I havent had a flat on them yet but everyone else I ride with gets pinch flats all the time. plus if you do get a flat just put in the goo and your off or you can ride on the flat tubie if you want. But if you do have to change the tire it takes all of 2 minutes to change, wayy faster than changing a tube.

.

---

_____________________________________________

I have horrible back problems but I have zero problems staying in an aero position for 180k. Why? Because I ride steep and because I train regularly in that position. Simple as that.....Gerard

Then let this be it. The goal is to step up my P2K to the Zipps and do aquabikes, or swim/bike/DNF with it. My other goal is to use my existing CAAD4 frame for weekend group rides from a local bike shop--they have a pansy division--so I would move the Velomax Vista Wheels to my CAAD4 frame for that purpose.

I like the idea of the 404/808 set (i.e. 606--Francois, this is the average).

I am afraid of tubular. I mostly read horror stories.

I read this on Sheldon Brown--if this is out of date, please let me know, otherwise, I see tubulars as something for the top riders in actual races, not grinding our long training miles--I am ready to pull the trigger on this, so please, everyone's input is welcome: