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Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ?????
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I planning to purchase a PowerTap unit and at this moment I have the zipp 606, My delema I can put the TP on my zipp and use it for training and racing or I can sale the zipp and get the William system 58 for training and racing.

Please let me know what you think is the best choice.
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [SuperCervelo] [ In reply to ]
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i take it you don't currently race on your zipps, so i would say:

put the PT on your current training wheels, use it in training and get all you can out of it...

then come race day, throw those zipps on and rely on your training to race fast...

____________________________________________

Hungry for tri!
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [tengo_hambre] [ In reply to ]
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I do race my Zipp 606 but I hate that I can only used it on race day, and I do want to train and race with power.
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [SuperCervelo] [ In reply to ]
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don't waste your money on a power tap train to HR and get faster.
Last edited by: barrybevan: Apr 24, 09 20:44
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
don't waste your money on a power tap train to HR and get faster.
Hmmm I wouldn't call training with power a waste... more like really smart.

You could always just get an SRM :-)

Otherwise get the wheels you can train and race in, and get a wheel cover for the rear for the big days.

Shanks
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [Shanks] [ In reply to ]
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I did not say it was dumb, training HR is much cheaper than training to power. Ideally it would be great to have HR and power as they are both effective measures. HR is the only thing that measures what your body is doing.

You can target HR zones which will allow you to get fitter and faster, you can do the same for power, but power is a function primarily of what you put in and this is measured by your HR.

For bang for buck the HR is going to do much more for you, is it good to know what power you are pumping out for a given input. This will alos let you know lots of good stuff about position and pedalling technique.

Smart yes, cost effective for most of us? no. HR training cheap and it works, HR plus power = no more excuses
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

You can target HR zones which will allow you to get fitter and faster, you can do the same for power, but power is a function primarily of what you put in and this is measured by your HR.

Sigh...I think you might have this backwards...and then some.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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ahh st sarcasm followed up by nothing of substance, it must be hard being as clever as you.

Please share your wisdom as opposed to your sacrcasm and sighs
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Now that I have that out of my system, time for some sensible posting:

Using power on the bike is similar to using pace on the run to measure your performance. it is the teue measure of your performance. It is similar to using a stop watch at the track. It gives you instant feedback on what your bottom line output is. It does not tell you what effort level you had to put into it to create that level of output. If you can run a 5 minute mile without using a HR monitor you don't know if it was easy or hard. You can use perceived effort but that has its own issues.


If you use heart rate, no matter what the pace you are going or what power output you are at you will know whether the effort level is appropriate or not. This based on a stratgey of the pace or power output to improve at any given heart rate with fitness. When combined bottom with power measurement it will tell you that you are getting faster or not.

The power meter is not a bad tool, but its kinda the same as saying I want to run 3 min kms and then targetting that when you either can't do it or are not physiologically ready for it

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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [SuperCervelo] [ In reply to ]
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For the record the Williams 58's are pretty stinking heavy. I have the 38's and use them for everything on my road bike training and racing. I have never used them on the tri bike though.

I figure the weight savings may almost cancel out the aero benefit of the extra 20mm depth. I live in a pretty hilly area though. The Williams wheels are bomb proof though so certainly strong enough to use as an everyday wheel.
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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you got it wrong from the start. Power is a direct mesure of what your doing on the road and what your body is producing. Hr is a indirect mesure and is often biais by many factor like hydratation, fatigue, etc and dosnt translate well all the time about what you are doing.

Power and pace are very different and not much in commun.

You have to be experience and/or have a good coach to train effectively with hr as hr will often send you in the wrong direction.... that most decent coach will know that...

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Now that I have that out of my system, time for some sensible posting:

Using power on the bike is similar to using pace on the run to measure your performance. it is the teue measure of your performance. It is similar to using a stop watch at the track. It gives you instant feedback on what your bottom line output is. It does not tell you what effort level you had to put into it to create that level of output. If you can run a 5 minute mile without using a HR monitor you don't know if it was easy or hard. You can use perceived effort but that has its own issues.


If you use heart rate, no matter what the pace you are going or what power output you are at you will know whether the effort level is appropriate or not. This based on a stratgey of the pace or power output to improve at any given heart rate with fitness. When combined bottom with power measurement it will tell you that you are getting faster or not.

The power meter is not a bad tool, but its kinda the same as saying I want to run 3 min kms and then targetting that when you either can't do it or are not physiologically ready for it

I prefer to quote actual physiologists on the subject (bold added):

Quote:
Monitoring heart rate (HR) provides one possible way around the above problem, since at least
under carefully standardized conditions there is a close relationship between HR and the actual
exercise intensity (i.e., power output or rate of oxygen consumption (VO2)) (Fig. 1). This method
has therefore been widely adopted in cycling and to a lesser degree in other sports (e.g., running).
However, while theoretically sound the use of HR to quantify training intensity does have certain
practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a
laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1).
This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example,
altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large
fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase
HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In
addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in
some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at
the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed
by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or
relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s)
to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of
shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed
to increase neuromuscular power. Finally, it must be kept in mind that HR is not a direct
determinant of performance, but is simply a reflection of the strain imposed on the
cardiovascular system by the exercise.
(This last point is seemingly often overlooked, as
demonstrated by the frequency with which coaches and athletes emphasize the need to minimize
HR during exercise, when in fact the true goal is to maximize performance regardless of the
“cost” in terms of HR.) Thus, while HR monitoring can be useful for detecting training-induced
changes in cardiovascular fitness (i.e., maximal oxygen uptake, or VO2max), it will generally be
insensitive to changes in other key determinants of performance, most importantly the rider’s
metabolic fitness, i.e., their lactate threshold (LT).

http://velo-fit.com/...les/coggan-power.pdf

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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hmm I'm happy to go with my coach who is most deifintely knowledgeable on the topic. I stated from the get go that power is the measure of direct performance I did not say it was a bad measure.

I said both systems can work together. Power is not a bad thing to measure. the enginge your body's effort can bne measured by a few factors and HR is one, the use of power for intervals as per the article sounds like a great idea, and it clearly works.

Most triathelets train in thier aerobic zone this type of training represents a small amount of training. No argument from me that having a power meter will let you know what is going on in terms of actual performance. In terms of nang for buck if you don't have a lot of cash would you go power? Different for everybody I guess.

You can't discount HR (I could spend all evening finding articles to show that HR is a good measure but it is a 3well accepted measure so why bother). Use both measures and you know more.

I am not wrong from the get go, neither are you we don't agree, it is okay to not agree. You don't have to say something you don't agree with is wrong, not directed at you but the the first reply instead of focussing on the discussion just goes of with the typical sarccy remark that is sadly the way that most discussions are held these days. You don't agree with me so you are wrong and then I'll make a sarccy remark, sounds very much like the pro republican press reviews of the Obama presidency
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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barry, it s not that i dont agree, it s that you do not understand very well how hr works and it make it difficulte for me to discuss it with you.

but if you have a good knowledgable coach, he will know how often hr is very general mesure of intensity and how to avoid looking at it when you are, Faitgue, high volume week, lacking sleep, sick, etc......

it s funny, with the best coach in the world..... joel filliol, paulo, brett sutton, etc..... they never mention or ask about hr..... must be that the best coach dont understand something that you do????


now, lets add something to the discussion

yes, hr is a data that with other data combine can be interesting and bring some info, you bring some valide point

but the interval that we are talking about with powermeter are interval that ALL triathlete do 99.9 % of the time...

When i give you a set of 3h ride with 3X 30min at half ironman pace. How will you know by hr that you are at half ironman? if you are tired, and in a big training phase, there is no way your hr will go up to half ironman zone... but your body will be already pushing the half ironman watts with your hr 10-15 beats lower than suppose to. Same apply for all 3 sport... every time you are tired, lack sleep, fatigue, your hr will get supress and wont go up.... if you rely on it to mesure your zone and force yourself to get your hr up to the zone in those situation... you will be going way too hard at many occasion.

hr can tell you how tired you are.... that can be usefull, it can tell you how rested you are.... but often wont be very accurate to guide you to the right zone....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
Last edited by: jonnyo: Apr 25, 09 19:48
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [barrybevan] [ In reply to ]
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ahh st sarcasm followed up by nothing of substance, it must be hard being as clever as you.

Please share your wisdom as opposed to your sacrcasm and sighs
Probably very little sarcasm there, its just that your making everyone's head SPIN right now................... and not in a "good way".



persequetur vestra metas furiose
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo you do present a good case for the use of power, and your post does explain one of the frustrations with HR, that is can't get HR up as I'm very tired but my output is good.

Your argument is completely vaild and is backed up be perfromances so I'm not going to argue something that is proven. My original view as that bang for buck it seems like a lot of cash, but thne looking at the rest of the cash we spend on this sport then maybe its not such a big investment.

If I am say less dogmatic about HR and look at the bigger picture then if training with power could take me from a 10:30 IM to 10 then I would probably think it was awesome. Would training this way yield that benefit, not sure, if it did I am certian that I would be parting with my cash.
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Re: Zipp 606 vs William Wheel System 58 ????? Help ????? [E_moto] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure exactly what your post is trying to say, so I won't respond directly, other than to say 4 people is not exactly representative of the group otherwise known as everyone.

For the record, I am not disputing the value of a power meter just its value for money. These are two different things. In this thread Sutton was highlighted as a good example of somebody who did not like HR, well he does not like Power either so using Sutton does not prove the value of the power meter either

CW was coached by Sutton and had this to say in 2008. "Brett doesn't really go for technology, we don't use HR monitors or power meters" http://www.chrissiewellington.org/...0_21082008101142.pdf

"We don't use them" magazine dated May 2008. Anyhow as I said for some reason you have to say again and again on this site, I am not disputing the utility of the power meter or the limitations of the HR monitor, only its value for money.

One final question, given that the bike is one leg of three how do you measure power for the run and swim.

http://outside.away.com/...iathlon-coach-2.html

Sutton describes them as pointless perhaps a bit over the top, but this is not a black and white discussion. He does not seem to like HR either
Last edited by: barrybevan: Apr 26, 09 15:46
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