Zipp 3001 vs. Lotus 110 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel

Nov 7, 18 10:04

Post #1 of 79 (8632 views)

Hi all - thought I'd let you know about a wind tunnel test we're doing in the UK (that personally I've wanted to do for a long time back to back!). Protocols will be fully disclosed!

We have a Zipp 3001 (the limited edition one with the giant strip of boron in the downtube) size large with large beam and 700c wheels which we've rigged up with a Tririg front brake and 3T Ventus bars. The comparison bike is a 56cm Cervélo P5 formerly owned by Frederik Van Lierde. Both have 175mm Miche Pistard Air cranks, 54t ARC 1x chainrings, the same arm rests and extensions and we'll be using the same wheels throughout the test.

We also have a very special bike that we'll be testing alongside these, more details on that tomorrow. We have a live rider aboard and will be doing bike only testing (but bike only will be more for interest as it's without spinning wheels). 2.5deg yaw increments going out to 20deg.

I'm rooting for the Zipp - Alex who's our test rider got a 0.2061m^2 best CdA on the Zipp last time he tested with us (he races TTs on it) but that was a slightly different position to these current setups as we needed to get the bikes set up exactly the same. Interestingly you have to run non loaded saddle height higher on the Zipp as it compresses when you sit down on it (there are elastomer inserts under the beam).

If anyone's got any questions let me know, we're doing some info/videos on our Facebook page but happy to answer stuff here :)

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Last edited by: Xavier: Nov 8, 18 12:44

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 10:43

Post #2 of 79 (8564 views)

Can t wait to see the results.

Ate you testing in the new boardman wind tunnel?

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 10:44

Post #3 of 79 (8552 views)

Watching!

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 10:45

Post #4 of 79 (8546 views)

Zipp should make frames again.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 10:45

Post #5 of 79 (8546 views)

I was hoping this would happen when I saw pictures on the social media.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [frenchieTT] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 10:55

Post #6 of 79 (8515 views)

Yes we’re doing testing in the Boardman tunnel - it opened to the public about a month ago and we’ve been doing lots of work there (before it opened, helping out with some of the usability/software aspects) as well as running client sessions every week. It’s a great facility and luckily for us just 35min from the office! We also have an outdoor velodrome 20min away that we use for field testing so we’re a bit spoilt (and two indoor veldodromes within 90min drive).

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:01

Post #7 of 79 (8491 views)

Why the monster spacer behind the TriRig Omega? That's going to be terrible. Also, housing on the cable. You're giving up watts!

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [chicanery] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:04

Post #8 of 79 (8476 views)

It was a take off from another bike which had the spacers, we might be able to sort that before tomorrow!

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:10

Post #9 of 79 (8450 views)

Using a drill/dremel and a small rigid brake noodle, you can "convert" the Ventus II to be able to support a bare cable down to the brake.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:10

Post #10 of 79 (8448 views)

I can't wait to see the results. I love these "old vs new" shootouts. That Zipp bike is quite slick looking. I watched one of your YouTube videos recently where you had a guy go mantis with the aerohead. Funny thing: when I went to A2 two years ago that's exactly what I ended up doing and it was the only substantial change I saw on the day.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [chicanery] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:27

Post #11 of 79 (8409 views)

We’re not drilling the Ventus :D

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:31

Post #12 of 79 (8394 views)

It is quite a common thing these days to go high hands but because the Aerohead works well in combination with that it can definitely be a good avenue to try.

There’s actually a 1970s bike vs P4 article from us in one of the UK cycling magazines being published tomorrow, but that was full setups including clothes, wheels, helmets etc. as well as the bike. For the test rider, sitting up on the base bars on the P4 was pretty much the same CdA as a crazy extreme 1970s road bike TT position on the round tubed bike with old clothing, really interesting stuff.

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:55

Post #13 of 79 (8324 views)

Xavier wrote:

We also have a very special bike that we'll be testing alongside these, more details on that tomorrow.

Hoping it's from a certain Norfolk-based car factory.. but good luck matching the setups if you do!

Looking forward to the outcome, cheers Xavier.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 11:57

Post #14 of 79 (8318 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Zipp should make frames again.

Well, there is the Dimond that was designed [by a Zipp engineer] from an old Zipp frame. You’d just rather it be labeled Zipp?

Dimond Bikes Superfan

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 12:01

Post #15 of 79 (8301 views)

ericlambi wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Zipp should make frames again.

Well, there is the Dimond that was designed [by a Zipp engineer] from an old Zipp frame. You’d just rather it be labeled Zipp?

Nope, I don't like the Dimond. The beam isn't nearly as purty.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:07

Post #16 of 79 (8170 views)

That test would look great with the addition of a lotus ;)

=====================================
S�rgio Marques
When it hurts is when it feels good ;-)
Sergio-Marques.com

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:20

Post #17 of 79 (8126 views)

ericlambi wrote:

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Zipp should make frames again.

Well, there is the Dimond that was designed [by a Zipp engineer] from an old Zipp frame. You’d just rather it be labeled Zipp?

I was just about to say this. Way off topic, but that Marquise is such a nice looking bike with practical storage. Having lived in central Iowa and meeting TJ at my first triathlon ~10 years ago makes me even more interested in the Dimond story.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [chicanery] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:30

Post #18 of 79 (8101 views)

chicanery wrote:

Using a drill/dremel and a small rigid brake noodle, you can "convert" the Ventus II to be able to support a bare cable down to the brake.

Chicanery,
I still run my original Ventus bars today. They are great, super-aero!
Also, I would love to use my Pearson in place of the Zipp 3001 as I think Graeme's shape of it may be slightly more aero.

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Taugen] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:33

Post #19 of 79 (8092 views)

Newer fork and sculpted head tube have some promise, but they are still quite wide, and the leading edges just aren't as Aero as they could be.

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:34

Post #20 of 79 (8091 views)

Have some suggestions having done a lots of bike only and bike + rider wind tunnel & velodrome testing.

Going out to 20 isn't that relevant to most people unless they are really slow. It's an interesting data point but could save time/money just going to 15. On the other hand if you're not paying then test out to 20!!!!

If you're sweeping negative and positive directions you may want to pause at 0 on the way back to reduce hysteresis w/the front wheel / tire

Those old school Zips & softrides always had to have a 5-10mm or so higher non compressed seat height. Wish I could find my data from my 3 Softride beam bikes to give actual #s

Interested in seeing the results, have a great test!

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Nov 7, 18 13:36

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:43

Post #21 of 79 (8062 views)

Going out to 20 is just to see what happens, rather than it being particularly relevant, granted. We always do repeats at lower yaws + wind on and off for stuff like this (we've done it before, this is just a public test rather than something internal).

I rode one of the first Zipp 2001s with the Allsop beam and that was incredibly flexible, even moved sideways when you went round tight corners which made handling pretty interesting/faster!

AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 13:44

Post #22 of 79 (8056 views)

It still has a lot of promise.

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 14:42

Post #23 of 79 (7956 views)

desert dude wrote:

Have some suggestions having done a lots of bike only and bike + rider wind tunnel & velodrome testing.

Going out to 20 isn't that relevant to most people unless they are really slow. It's an interesting data point but could save time/money just going to 15. On the other hand if you're not paying then test out to 20!!!!

If you're sweeping negative and positive directions you may want to pause at 0 on the way back to reduce hysteresis w/the front wheel / tire

Those old school Zips & softrides always had to have a 5-10mm or so higher non compressed seat height. Wish I could find my data from my 3 Softride beam bikes to give actual #s

Interested in seeing the results, have a great test!

IIRC, the zipp beams had an adjustable preload and were quite a bit more rigid than the softrides.

The zipp beam looked sexier than the dimond.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 17:25

Post #24 of 79 (7816 views)

JasoninHalifax wrote:

Zipp should make frames again.

Although Zipp don't make them and I am sure would cost a lot more if it were the case but the engineers of the time were involved with creating the Dimond

https://www.tririg.com/articles.php?id=2012_05_TJ_Tollakson_Interview

Re: Zipp 3001 vs. a Cervélo P5 in the wind tunnel [Xavier] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 19:54

Post #25 of 79 (7696 views)

Xavier wrote:

Going out to 20 is just to see what happens, rather than it being particularly relevant, granted. We always do repeats at lower yaws + wind on and off for stuff like this (we've done it before, this is just a public test rather than something internal).

I rode one of the first Zipp 2001s with the Allsop beam and that was incredibly flexible, even moved sideways when you went round tight corners which made handling pretty interesting/faster!

If you have the resources, something Josh@Silca recently brought up that I found interesting: Zipp apparently found that behavior across the yaw sweep was not symmetrical after detachment. E.g. if a wheel detached at 15 degrees, sweeping back in it might not reattach until 10 degrees and different wheels behaved differently in this regard. Some better, some worse.

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