Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Yes... the tire question again
Quote | Reply
Hey All,

I posted a few months ago about converting my wheels over to latex tubes and how great they worked etc etc. I had the worst luck during a 70.3 today with my wheels ever and I think I am ready to make a change.

To start off - my latex tube exploded before I got out of the swim and blew the tire bead off the rim. I had 2-3 races on these (Olympics) and this was my first actual length with the tubes. I then have a valve stem unseat on another tube and then a wheel shifting mechanical after the support guy got me a butyl. Needless to say the latex issues combined with the absolutely difficult tire installation and removal on Enve rims I don’t think I want to consider the Latex tubes again.

Here is what I have/had now;

Conti GP4000 II - 25 wide front and rear
Latex tubes
Enve 7.8

What do you guys think is the most reasonable or all around tire. I have the rims to do whatever, some ideas I had;

GP4000 and Butyl
Tubeless tires (schwalbe pro, Galactik maybe?)
Michelin power competition and butyl
Gp4000 RS maybe and butyl?

I am up for any recommendation - the gp4000II that I have have right at 250miles on them. I want a tire set that last 2-3 seasons if possible (250-350miles or more) maybe the most aero is fastest, maybe rolling?

What’s your guys opinion?

I also want to add that after 3 tube changes I wasted 35mins of time on the bike....
Last edited by: teddygram: Jul 29, 18 17:13
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Literally today I got the first cut on my Hutchinson Fusion5 11Storms. It was a slice of maybe 3/16ths of an inch. It failed to seal with OrangeSeal. Even with spinning it. Even with putting it at the bottom. Even with holding my thumb over it. Even with extra air. I got filthy, threw my tube in it, and here endeth my attempts at tubeless. I'm just not going to try all the other options to see if one of them will actually seal when I need it to.

The grass isn't always greener; I've had much more luck with swapping tubes. I've never had ENVEs though.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your real problem is you don’t know how to change and install a tube properly. Sorry man, maybe I’m wrong and there is something in rim or wheel that’s popping tubes. Otherwise watch the flo video on how to install tubes. Not trying to be a jackass, I was once like you and I haven’t had a pop in 7 years...knocks wood. Watch the video and thank Flo :)

PS no tire levers for an install, ever!
Last edited by: EnderWiggan: Jul 29, 18 17:20
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
I think you're giving up on latex way too quick. If your tube exploded and blew the tire off the rim, it's 99% certain you installed the tube incorrectly. You got to flip all around the tire to make sure the tube is not leaking out under the bead:

http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com/...-guide-to-latex.html


A latex tube that is incorrectly installed can actually go for days or even weeks before it blows. The Enve wheels do suck for tire installation. Just make sure that both beads of the tire are as close to the middle trough of the rim as possible as you complete the installation. That will make a huge difference.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
User error.

I wager that the failure holes are near the stem.

Here’s what happened... your tires were totally deflated after your last use. When you reinflated, you pushed the in the steam while mounting the chuck and did not soundly seat the tube against the rim at the stem. Pop.
Last edited by: exxxviii: Jul 29, 18 17:39
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [jens] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guys - the tube was installed right, end of story. The wheels had races and rides on them prior with no issues.

What happened is the wheels sat over a month without being used and completely deflated. The tires unhooked the bead when that happened and I didnt even think about it when I just went and pumped it up. Yes I pre rode them but it just didn’t have the issue until race day. I realized this after sitting like a Putz on the side of the road as I waited for the tech.

The second tube flat out didn’t have the valve stem extender tightened down enough and after vibration it rattled loose causing that tube to go flat.

I am not going to argue on tube installation - I am going to argue I’m not riding these wheels all the time and I’m not keeping maintnence with them up.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
teddygram wrote:
Guys - the tube was installed right, end of story. The wheels had races and rides on them prior with no issues.
Sorry but they were installed wrong. Just because they lasted through a couple rides doesn't mean they weren't installed wrong. It can take a while for the bead to work its way off. It's possible you installed them correctly at first, and then in moving the bike they got screwed up, but that's actually not very likely. Most likely they were installed in such a way that the tube was sticking under the bead somewhere, and then at first the bead was on well enough everywhere else that it stuck on anyway, for a while. Eventually, with time and after being deflated and reinflated, it blew off. You don't have to believe us, but a bunch of us ride latex every day and have for many years. Jens and I also test tires so we've installed many many different brands/models of tires on many different rims, with latex tubes. We've seen it all. You've only just started.

The good news is it's actually pretty easy to learn to do it right every time. You just have to take some care. If you want to go back to butyl that's fine. Butyl is harder to screw up, and will last longer when installed wrong, and sometimes won't explode even if the bead pops off (bulging out instead).
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Right, as I said the bead unhooked and on these rims when this happens it pops the bead pretty much center. The tube got between the tire and rim when I aired them up for the race.

With a little bit of luck and sore fingers with a tire lever you can get the tires on the rim - it’s not fun at all. My normal aluminum training rims and tire I could install bare handed if needed.

So back to the questions - any other ideas or is it you’re an idiot and cant install a tube and need to HTFU?
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As a FYI, if you're considering tubeless you should know it's not "maintenance free". You need to regularly check to make sure you have enough liquid sealant. I'm with pretty much everyone else in this thread: you probably didn't install them correctly... or you didn't inflate the one correctly.... and how much pressure are you running to blow a bead off the rim while it's sitting in transition??!!

I've always heard Enve's are a pita to mount/remove tires. Personally I have HEDs, Zipps, and now Mavic's in my stable. I'd rank them HED, Mavic, Zipp in the order of most difficult to easiest to mount/remove tires.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not HTFU, but tubeless will not be simpler than latex tubes. I'd advise you to get more practice at installing latex tubes and checking the installation. Over and over. This is a good reminder I should check the tubes in mine and my wife's race wheels before Boulder.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tubeless. Spesh S-Works Turbo Road or the Schwalbe Pro Ones.

For all these horror stories about people getting cuts that won't seal, you're not reading about the countless latex tube disasters like yours, pinch flats, tiny punctures and tiny cuts that are being repaired because the sealant does what it is supposed to do. Add in the ability to run lower pressures on rough roads, and it's a great solution.

And if it goes to hell, slap a tube, bacon strip, or boot in it and ride on.

***
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [Toby] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I always run 90-100psi depending on the roads (try to pre-ride). I have a few tubeless MTB and they are easy - just shake them around make sure it has fluid and if not add some. They (although a lot lower pressure) hold air for a long time. I wasn’t sure if the road version was much different.

I left the bike in T1 like normal and then the next morning I went to pump them up. They were at 45-50psi and I pumped them to 100psi

Yes - these enve’s suck putting tires on, the poor on site tech asked me wtf as he messed with it for a while.

I’m not 100% giving up on Latex - but more or less seeing if there was a better option.
Last edited by: teddygram: Jul 29, 18 18:19
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If it were me I would contact the manufacturer if Enve 7.8 and ask them what tires to use
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [RBR] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RBR wrote:
If it were me I would contact the manufacturer if Enve 7.8 and ask them what tires to use

25 conti 4000II with “tube”
Or
Schwalbe Pro One Tubless

That was the recommendation straight from Enve, that was 2 seasons ago though and a lot has changed. I could call them again!
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
teddygram wrote:
RBR wrote:
If it were me I would contact the manufacturer if Enve 7.8 and ask them what tires to use


25 conti 4000II with “tube”
Or
Schwalbe Pro One Tubless
Both of these are great choices.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
teddygram wrote:
Yes - these enve’s suck putting tires on, the poor on site tech asked me wtf as he messed with it for a while.
I’m not 100% giving up on Latex - but more or less seeing if there was a better option.

Tubeless tires will probably be harder to mount as they have tighter carbon beads.

I've installed over 100 latex tube in the last 10 years and never got one caught under the bead. I don't even check anymore. Failures at the valve area are also easy to prevent. I can tell you how to do it if you want to know.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
  
I forgot to mention: I've added a step in my tire installation recently: I initially inflate to 125psi and then back down to the pressure I actually want. Before tubeless tires and rims, this wasn't necessary. But now it's possible for part of the bead to "duck under," which leaves you with a flat spot. This is a problem even if you are using tubes. A few times now, I haven't gotten the final "pop" from the bead shifting until 120 psi. The added benefit to going to 125 psi is that if you've botched the installation, you'll probably find out right away.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Jul 29, 18 20:46
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
exxxviii wrote:
User error.

I wager that the failure holes are near the stem.

Here’s what happened... your tires were totally deflated after your last use. When you reinflated, you pushed the in the steam while mounting the chuck and did not soundly seat the tube against the rim at the stem. Pop.

Whelp, this must have been my problem in the past. It always is by the valve stem. Glad to know what it is!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After six years of no flats with latex tubes and conti 4000s, I got three in a matter of four weeks with my Enve 8.9s and Conti TTs. Long story short, my LBS eventually put in new rim tape (double wrap) and problem solved. Now running HED disc plus/ 4 combo this year with the same wrap.....no problems yet.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rruff wrote:

Tubeless tires will probably be harder to mount as they have tighter carbon beads.

True.

But they seem to be getting easier. Even within the same brand/model. I tried some of the new Goodyear Eagles, and they're stupid easy (though not a performance tire). I got a new pair of Corsa Speed tires on a Jet+ rim without tools (though with a good amount of effort), which I was never able to do before, which makes me think they relaxed things a little bit.

And of course a benefit of tubeless is you can manhandle them over the rim almost worry free.
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
..... tubulars, tried and true. :)
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I will add this. I am also a believer that tubeless is much more difficult, in a road tire (assuming Vittoria corsa speed), than latex. I am more likely to recommend latex before tubeless. It isn't 100% positive that there isn't some sort of rim defect affecting the rims that caused the issue, although with the tubeless hooks I think that is much less likely. But I did a video many moons ago of tires repeatedly blowing off rims in hot sun at about 125 psi on old rims when they first when wider with the original Zipp FC. Unfortunately I lost the data in a hard drive failure, thanks to a bug in an earlier Intel SSD controller, still angry about it. However, I would suspect this isn't the case, but fwiw my Enve rims were not super clean on the rim bead and I actually filed down some carbon to make it smooth. I could see a latex tube being able to pinch out of it if the jump in carbon was drastic enough.

Regardless, to answer your questions. I would give latex another try. Invest in some Conti GPTT for a faster tire, and invest in a tire bead jack (not lever) if you are having trouble getting the tires on.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just sayin but it was really hot in Whistler today
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [Animalmom2] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's never going to get hot enough for the pressure to increase enough to blow a tire off the rim
Quote Reply
Re: Yes... the tire question again [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you have read the other threads here about tires then your should know to stick with the latex. Tires will be all about risk reward: Conti SS and Conti TT are my go to race tires. Conti 4GP you will give up a few watts but maybe it gives you more piece of mind. I do run selent in my latex as well.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
Quote Reply

Prev Next