Always a disc.

always a disc

Plenty of discs in transition on that course.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

So basically you are asking if all the other factors you could encounter on a flat course could make the 808 a faster wheel? Unfortunately like all things the answer is "it depends" and more specifically on the disc wheel you are comparing it to.

My first disc wheel was basically an old Mavic MA40 spoked wheel with a hard plastic cover. I seem to remember it being about 1500g. It was fine once you got it up to speed but it felt more difficult to get up to speed for obvious reasons. I think it was Cycling Weekly was covering the Ineos wheel choice and they were using the new AeroCoach disc that is in the mid 900g range. So that wheel is probably as light or lighter than your 808. I think the LiteWeight disc is lighter still and has less mass on the outer edge of the wheel so that should actually accelerate faster than your 808.

The Zipp discs are a solid construction, so they are going to transfer road vibration and jolts more than a wheel that is spoked, like the Jet, Flo and AeroCoach. Advantage spoked disc and double the advantage if you have a wider internal width so you can run a 25 or 28 mm tire with little to no aero penalty.

Lateral stiffness can make a difference on corner feel and confidence and you are less likely to have a brake rub issue if you really have to stand on the pedals to get back up to speed after one of those 180 degree turns. A solid disc is unlikely to match a disc that is made with a spoked internal structure, so the 808 could have an advantage over a solid disc, but once again the spoked discs are going to have roughly equivalent stiffness to your 808.

I guess I would just save that 808 for Kona.

Your Super 9 is quite stiff and laterally strong so great acceleration and handing. Comfort may be more affected by tire choice and pressure. I have a Super 9 and an 808 . . . no question I'd ride the Super 9.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I've raced that course numerous times in numerous iterations over the decades. You can definitely spend the majority of time on that course in aero. It's not a put your head down and just go with hardly any worries course, but 90% of the time you can be aero on that course. The roads sucked for certain, that's a reason to think about tire pressure, tires & tubes not 808 vs a disc. having ridden both Hed and Zipp discs on that course in both clincher & tubular formats, the Hed discs just handle the rough road better, which will be applicable to any rough road course. I think that takes care of #3 for you.

The majority of U turns on that course aren't technical. IIRC there are 2 or 3 that are tight and many you're just tapping the brakes vs squeezing them or you can actually coast through. My guess is if you lose :01 per turn you're still faster with a disc, the 808 is going to have more drag to get up to speed and be slower on the downhills, flats and cross winds.

This is more of a bike handling skill set question, especially on that course, as much if not more than a disc vs no disc question. That should answer question 1 & 2.

Here's an example of why bike handling is important and doubly so on that course. There is a dude I've raced numerous times over the last 10 years. He's a very powerful rider, usually 1:30-2min faster per 40k than I am. Yet over the races we've done there are 2 courses where I outs ride him 95% of the time. Why is that? Because I can handle my TT bike better than he can. I brake later into the corners & u turns + can turn faster & tighter than 98/100 triathletes. I carry more speed into & more importantly more speed out of the corners which reduces the physiological demand to get back up to speed.

I figured its worth .15-.3 mph on that course or the difference between averaging 23.0 and 23.3 mph. That's ~ 1200-1400m over 90k. That's a HUGE amount to make up or put on someone for free. You don't have to do anything to go that much faster, not 1w extra and probably expend less watts. I'd much rather be just past the 1.2k point of the run when they exit T2. Or to put it in terms of a running track that's just over 3 laps of the track the better bike handler is ahead of you all things being =


It's not uncommon on the Tempe course for me to pin someone to the curb bc I've made up 40 yards on them through a turn. Now we are exiting shoulder to shoulder which also provides the occasional entertaining commentary from them. Entering the turn I was :06 back now we're literally 1 foot apart. It's not uncommon to pass 3-4 people in each U turn on the inside while maintain more speed then they.

On the Curry downhill to the L hand turn onto College it's not uncommon to take :30 out of the people in front of me going through that corner. Losing 1-1.5 min on 1 turn is a lot of time.

The better you handle your bike the faster you're going to go.

Tempe 70.3 isn't an 808 vs disc course. It's a I can corner like a sports car vs I corner like a U haul truck and the negative impacts that has physiologically, the higher cost of watts to go slower.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yes, agree. And the last few years at AZ70.3 on my Super9 I have ridden the course aggressively (most on the sports car side of things) and agree you can really make up some time on others by being a good cyclist and knowing what your bike is capable of. I have always been amazed at how fast the AZ course is, it doesn't look fast on a map but you can really fly and I do think the u-turns/turns make it easier on your legs (little moments of recovery.)

I'll stick with the super9 combo again this year based on on the comments (which was always my plan.. but asked the question because I was curious to hear if someone had some other data that might counter my plans. I haven't raced on anything other than my Super 9 for the last 5 years and I am sure if I put something else on there I would blame the new wheel for whatever negative happened on the course :-/.

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______________________________________________
Team Zoot

Im newer to the “always disc” camp. I’m finding I prefer the disc in all situations except high speed descending with across winds. I just can’t seem to get used to that.

"I brake later into the corners & u turns"
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I have found that even more true with the disc brake version of the Super 9.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Link to segment needed.

A 30 second turn isn’t a turn, that’s a wide open throttle minor bend in the road. 30 seconds is just under a 1/4 mile. And you’re claiming to gain 30 seconds on people, not even talking total time. So, that piece of road has to be longer than 1/4 mile.

This^^^^^ is the answer.

If you really want to see the course then here you go: https://connect.garmin.com/...ctivity/3107010429/3
The only u-turn that is really tight is the one on N. College. The rest of them tend to be something you roll through carefully. Avoiding slower cyclist is the biggest issue that causes you to slow down more than you would if you were just out there TT'ing the course. It is three loops so on your 2nd and 3rd loop you can't just bomb through the turns so you end up losing a lot more speed then you should.

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______________________________________________
Team Zoot

what about a smaller front wheel? That's where you're going to increase/decrease the bike's stability due to winds.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yeah, I only ride an ENVE 5.6 front. So I don’t know how much shallower to go. I just have had a couple experiences where I get blasted with a gust and blown off my line. And the fear/anticipation of that causes me to just tense up.

I just got the new Roval Rapide wheels on my new Shiv, so we’ll see how that handles. TBD on whether I’ll bring a disc to Lake Placid.

I'd bring the disc. With crosswinds it's the front wheel that will give you that I'm going to lose my front end feeling. Typically discs are more stable or add to that stability vs a deep(er) rear wheel

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Always a disc unless the bike course is all up a steep hill.

In windy conditions depth of front wheel is more of an issue than the disc at the rear.