How does riding at 14-15mph, for whatever time, build base? And what the heck is "base"? What kind of adaptation occurs with this kind of ride?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I don't see the interest beyong the psychological effect.

It's really hard to argue with the results of Dittrich, Zach, Hellreigel, et al. from the early-mid 90's when they were doing lots of this training.

yet, another discussion on whether they have their results because or in spite or their training?

"What kind of adaptation occurs with this kind of ride?"

Ken,

I agree. I am not sure that I can see the rational from a purely physiological perspective( If, other more learned folks have aother ideas, please chime in), other then maybe the pure adventure of it and developing your own chamois that is part of your own rear end! I guess you can save money on bikes shorts!

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

And Eddy Merckx used to smoke as training for the six day races. Your point?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

That's the thing about this sport. There will always be stories of people who go longer, faster, farther than most. You've just got to find what works best for you and not let stories like this get you rattled. Plus, some people probably like being on a bike for 12 hours.

That's why I (and some others) are continuously asking "why?" to stories like these. In the absence of evidence that these things actually provide adaptation stimuli, people should be wary. Unless, like you say, one just likes to do stuff like this. Me? I like to do stuff that makes me faster. That's fun.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"There will always be stories of people who go longer, faster, farther than most"

Agreed. This sport seems to be obsessed with this sort of stuff. I recall my final prepartion for my first Ironman in 1989( IMH) and getting the handbook for the race about a month out. The "reccomended" weekly training volumes were double what I had been doing! I was getting a little worried as the race approached. I had never even run a marathon or run longer than 20 miles at that point. Race went well going 9:40 and after that I never concerned myself what others were doing or what the "reccomended" training was for anything.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

enjoying a bike ride for 12 hours is one thing... producing any actual fitness adaptations (or lack thereof) from such an excursion is another.... hmmm let's teach my body to go SLOW for a long time. ....enh... how about NOT.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Markey I thought you did 12 hour stints out east of town?

only up to 6 and with the ipod just having fun... but now that i ride them fast and hard that time comes down to under 5 =)

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

So....it is a legend bwhahahahaha

Come out and drag me for 4 hours this weekend. Mrs. ATX and I need a new route to ride. You have anything out east that doesn't involve A.) Cars B.) chasing dogs?

dude... enough hijacking already... ;-) mvanakkeren@tocquigny.com

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Oh no he doesn't. He doesn't want a piece of me!

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Someone explain to me how this is detrimental to training?

Training the mind and body to go long is beneficial in my thinking. Long training days make an IM seem manageable. Adaptation occurs when one varies the stimuli - thus, a variety of training stimuli are needed to complete a training program.

An essential component that is overlooked a lot is the psychological component of training. You gotta believe to achieve!

"How does riding at 14-15mph, for whatever time, build base? And what the heck is "base"? What kind of adaptation occurs with this kind of ride?"

Ken et al:

One adaptation that might occur with this sort of riding, particularly if done with a high cadence, might be a bump in cycling economy, particularly in the face of fatigue. However it would probably need to be done more than once, or perhaps as part of a very high volume training cycle to get that effect. (FWIW, I wonder if this might be the way that Gordo got to be so good, given his allegedly indifferent VO2max scores - long volume/accumulated miles do stack up scarily well. it's why the likes of LJ was producing his highest sustained power readings in the final years of his career, long after he'd peaked in efficiency terms).

A 12-hr ride is likely to be the first long-term target in my IM prep for next year, though I'll be aiming for something more in the region of 260 miles on my T bike.

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You've got a point. But by the wild look of the man's eyes, I'd say the 12 hour ride gave him TOO MUCH stimulus.

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Fleck, why do 400 IM guys do 40K weeks in the pool?

Most people have insufficient mileage for Ironmans. You wonder why Zack, Faris, Dittrich etc etc etc can average 40 kph for 180K. Its cause they can do 30 kph for 300K and 48 kph for 40 K. There is a place for both in the program.

Ken Lehner...I thought you were the guy pushing specificity. At least these guys are riding their bikes for 12 hours (vs doing squats for 12 hourrs). First you hammer guys for doing squats, but now you are hammering them for biking?

In any event, your heart does not no the difference. If you want to race hard for 8+ hours, it is great if your heart can cruise for 12. Most of us race for 10+ in an Ironman, but never train longer than 6 hours. The easiest way to get long aerobic day in is by biking. There is minimal recovery time and your aerobic engine gets used to pumping for a long time. These guys did not get good at Ironman out of accident. If you want to race for 8 hours you gotta do the time.

I do not think he will be riding that slow !!! prob more in the range of 30-33 km/h or 18 - 20 mph

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http://www.wimdedoncker.be

If you want to race hard for 8+ hours, it is great if your heart can cruise for 12. Most of us race for 10+ in an Ironman, but never train longer than 6 hours. The easiest way to get long aerobic day in is by biking.

That's kind of what I was thinking. You can either go for intensity or volume in a training session, right? I am not sure why a low intensity, high volume training session is all of a sudden worthless.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Fleck, the top pros go long and easy and short and fast as you well know. Then on race day, they can go long and fast. Your studly 9:40 in Hawaii is one story, but it takes a whole lot of different training to up that to sub 8 like Faris does at Roth.

You guys are questioning this 12 hour ride in isolation of the overall program which more than certainly includes lots of short fast stuff too.

But yes, if you always go long and slow, you will race long and slow.

The math (160 miles in 11 hours riding time) comes out to 14-15mph. Just using his own numbers.

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"Go yell at an M&M"