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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Using the bike category system you wouldnt go 2:14....you'd go 2:15:01 "sandbagging" to stay in the Cat 2 and "win".....

Yeah, lets turn Triathlon into a combination of "bracket racing" and "WWF," where 100 athletes are elbow-to-elbow coming into the chute, each trying to cross the line at exactly the category "dial in" time without breaking out.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
jaretj wrote:
2:14 would be Cat 1 according to the OP's chart.

Sorry I didn't realize there were times, thought this was hypothetical.Obviously though there will always be a cusp of podium, in one category to BOP in the next category.

Take the current 40-44 age group. 99.99% of the entrants have no hope in hell of getting anywhere near the front. Wheres the long term enjoyment/incentive for them, or the encouragement for them to drag their friends into a race if they are all down dead last?

If they could all start off at say cat 5 they could actually have a chance of 'competing'?

That’s been me. Hey- it’s ok. I realize I own a business, have twins, and I can’t dedicate the time to expect to compete near the front. Prior to kids, I was getting competitive in sprints and oly’s, but then kids came and it was all over.

Honestly, I do the sport now for my own health, love of the sport, and the lifestyle to stay in shape. Winning wouldn’t matter to me either way.

Posting because there are dudes mid pack and back of the pack like me that are ok with it. I don’t care if they changed the sport so I can walk away with a medal that nobody will really care about anyway. The next morning I will still be back at work doing the same job and my kids will be asking me what’s for dinner.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [sligotri] [ In reply to ]
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sligotri wrote:
Not scoffing at all! What I'm saying is if an 80 year old comes close to beating a 50 year old they are a far better athlete and more deserving of a podium place or KQ.

What if the 50yr old is really bad?

In reality there should be no age groups.

If you finish top 30myou go to kona. If you don’t you just took part.

The Olympics isn’t taking 72yr old males.

If we want the best at world championships, be that Kona, 703, Olympic distance whatever. Just take the best. Not some 72 yr old woman that takes double the time of the winner.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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Right but if this was the Olympics and we only want to figure out the best individual in the world we would only have about 50 people in the race and they would all be professionals. This isn't about the best in the world. It's amateurs testing themselves against other amateurs of a similar age. It makes total sense to have the best 72 year old woman there as it gives other women around the world something to aim for.

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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [fumanchu282] [ In reply to ]
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I know this has been discussed, but I haven't seen really good critical thought around this topic...

USAT already has a pretty impressive ranking system. I mean, look into the methods they've been using for years not; it has really held up well and whomever came up with that system is just awesome.

I've thought for some time now that the USAT ranking system provides the basis for a Category system that is much better than what USA Cycling uses, and could make triathlon racing more fun, safer and provide goal-based system for motivating people (vs the current system which primarily motivates people to knock out a few Ironman brand races and then leave the sport).

Cat 1 could be a C level pro/semi-pro category.

I love the idea.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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You have first knowledge that my assumption is inaccurate??? Yes I’m assuming the purpose of groups is to promote/allow smaller groups of competition within the larger race. I think that’s a fair assumption. Unless you were involved in the establishment of AG you are making an assumption too.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
sligotri wrote:
Not scoffing at all! What I'm saying is if an 80 year old comes close to beating a 50 year old they are a far better athlete and more deserving of a podium place or KQ.


What if the 50yr old is really bad?

In reality there should be no age groups.

If you finish top 30myou go to kona. If you don’t you just took part.

The Olympics isn’t taking 72yr old males.

If we want the best at world championships, be that Kona, 703, Olympic distance whatever. Just take the best. Not some 72 yr old woman that takes double the time of the winner.

Nah, I'd rather see the best 70-75 year old woman get an invite than they guy who eeked out a 30th overall but is maybe 250th best in the world in his age group. Neither is a factor for an overall win. At least the age groupers add some interesting races-within-the-race.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
sligotri wrote:
Not scoffing at all! What I'm saying is if an 80 year old comes close to beating a 50 year old they are a far better athlete and more deserving of a podium place or KQ.


What if the 50yr old is really bad?

In reality there should be no age groups.

If you finish top 30myou go to kona. If you don’t you just took part.

The Olympics isn’t taking 72yr old males.

If we want the best at world championships, be that Kona, 703, Olympic distance whatever. Just take the best. Not some 72 yr old woman that takes double the time of the winner.


Who said a world championship can't include the best at different ages? Who said the Olympics only includes the best? Especially since 72 year old USMS swimmers could have easily crushed Eric Moussambani in the Sydney olympics. When you invent your own successful world championship then you can establish your own rules; just like the IOC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2teSx5xiRk
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Your missing the whole point of AG classifications by even making assumptions when you earlier mentioned it based on similiar speeds etc etc (page 2 of your comments). AG ranks don’t need assumptions that was my whole point to your initial post about grouping similiar speed athletes.

AG class is actually pretty simple. If your Y age you race against Y aged peers no worry on race/ability/experience/speeds. If your C age you race against C aged peers again irregardless of ability/race/$$/experience.


It doesn’t need assumptions it doesn’t need clarifications. It’s actually far more simple than pretty much any other classification system. That doesn’t make it the best system but it does make it pretty assumption free. Makes it pretty clean from a classification standpoint. You can’t really cheat the actual classification process. You are what you are.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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The Olympics isn’t taking 72yr old males.


——-

But they also aren’t take the best in the world. They are taking the best in the world within their allowed allotment.


So even the Olympics uses an classification system to fill its slots.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I’m not the one missing the point. I’m done with you
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Mar 12, 19 15:54
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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AG ranks don’t have any real reasonable assumptions other than racing similiar age. Which is usually an fair reasonable approach most of the time because your racing your “peers”. Again while it may not create the fairest/cleanest racing for the entirety of the whole race, it is likely the easiest format to process.

I think the problem with creating divisions is that we are an sport that is racing + casual athletes all in the same course at the same time. Dividing it out will almost assuredly improves the safety aspect of it provided they don’t muck up the divisions by sending them off in odd times (sending 1st timers 10 mins in front of the Cat 3 semi fast group).

So category system still fails (as do AG systems when they send the 20-30 group 8 mins behind the 60+ group etc) if the race itself doesn’t probaly stager the divisions accordingly.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 12, 19 16:41
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
NordicSkier wrote:
Road racing is doing worse than triathlon as a sport... except for fondos and gravel racing where there are no categories.


Yep, sports that are all about participation, that have a low bar for fitness and skill, are much more popular.

This explains why IRONMAN is so popular too.

Ed Alyanak


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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:

Who said a world championship can't include the best at different ages? Who said the Olympics only includes the best? Especially since 72 year old USMS swimmers could have easily crushed Eric Moussambani in the Sydney olympics. When you invent your own successful world championship then you can establish your own rules; just like the IOC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2teSx5xiRk

That rule have been changed.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not saying 80 year olds should race. They just shouldn't be able to get a spot to the world championships and then go on and do a 16:07

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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Because when you own the event you can change the rules. Fortunately, you aren't in charge of Kona.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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Hines Ward shouldn’t be able to freely race in Kona either. Or my friend who raised the most “charitable funds” a few years back to get her spot.

We’ve long gone moved past this idea than Kona is this true world championship. It literally has about 30 races within the race, and it’s done that way cus we can only get 1 race but you bet if they could have a true only fast athletes make it into the race; they would.

But they can’t piss off the locals with a move like that so Kona has morphed into pretty much the perfect microcosm of the sport of tri. Some really fast people, some really avg people and some people who likely don’t *need* to be racing that distance.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [fumanchu282] [ In reply to ]
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fumanchu282 wrote:
Why doesn’t Triathlon have categories like bike racing does? It would allow many more AGers to actually “race” rather than just finish, and there’s a place for people with different experiences and volumes of training to participate and not get tailed off the back.

Some other threads are going on about the future of tri, one-and-done people who don't seem motivated to go faster, etc. Wouldn't this help change the "finisher" culture to a "race" culture and be good for the sport?

Also, some are talking about how it seems pretty exorbitant to pay USAT for what we’re getting now, but if they (or someone) managed the "upgrade points" and facilitated a competitive structure like this, I’d see a lot more value there.

For example, Olympic distance might be structured something like:
Pro
Cat 1 - winner goes 2hr or sub
Cat 2 - winner goes ~2:15
Cat 3 - winner goes ~2:30
Cat 4 - winner goes ~2:45
Cat 5 - winner goes ~3:00
Just a suggestion to start the conversation, I'm sure others will have different opinions. But think about how much more room there is for competition in a structure like that. And hey, it makes it make sense for AGers of all speeds to spend more $$$ on a few seconds of aero gains...

And for the older folks, there can still be Masters categories etc. Seems like cycling has this figured out, so what am I missing here?

I think more races just need an elite category. You have to register for the category instead of as an age group athlete. When you sign up for the elite category you forfeit all chances to place in your age group regardless of how you do; similarly only those in the elite category are eligible for the overall win and the awards associated with that. I have done several races like this and it is way better then simply doing age group waves.

Similarly Ironman needs to make a new start group for elite althetes. That way faster athletes can start first; similar to how pros get to start before the age groupers. This way we can get back to doing wave starts and not this silly rolling start garbage, the first person across the line should be the overall winner, not someone who started 2hrs later. To get into the elite wave you would need to submit either a swim time or an overall time, and there would need to be a minimum for both. That way no super fast swimmer and slow runner can be in that wave; similarly no slow swimmer and fast runner could be either.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
So road racing is no longer a club/team sport.

I was little, but when my father was a cyclist it was all a team sport.


That may be location dependent. Where I am, it's all about the team. You're pretty much toast trying to race unattached. You'll be eaten alive, even with near-world-class talent.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [yoe400800] [ In reply to ]
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Fantastic!
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
having crashed into Cat 5 level people in our current AG model, I want catergory racing. They zigzag, block the course, etc. Too dangerous.

On a more serious note, that's one of the benefits of cycling in general with respect to skills. When you do stupid things in cycling, generally you'll get corrected. Sometimes with profanity during a race, but often after the race you'll get someone come over to talk to you quietly, and respectfully give feedback. And if that feedback is ignored, you'll eventually be run out of the community. At the Cat 1-3 level if you're very unpopular, life will be made very, very difficult for you. No one will work with you.

In triathlon there's none of that. After a race everyone kind of disappears. And the next race is mostly different people. It's cycling where you tend to see the same people a lot, and get to know them well.

I enjoy the Cat system in cycling, after coming from triathlon. It gives nice, clear goals. It's satisfying to move up.
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Probaly the biggest benefit is that in cycling each cat. get its own race. But that'll never happen in triathlon except for very specific DL races/venues.

So the category system can only work in triathlon under these scenarios:

-no multi looped BIKE courses (only 2 North American IM's would this apply to- Kona and IM FL...every other IM in NA is multi loop course meaning it then becomes a free for all and the whole "safety" concerns come into play).

-starting waves by best categories (Pro/Cat1) to worst categories (Cat 5)

If either of those circumstances aren't followed, your going to be having everyone on the same course mixing amongst themselves and then the whole category "safety" idea goes out the window.

ETA: So the cat system would likely work really well for sure at the sprint and olympic venues cus very rarely are you doing loops on that small of an area. I'd have to look more closely at the 70.3's, but it really doesn't work for North American IM's except Kona and IM FL. So the majority of the races in the US it would help, but the biggest races that get the most athletes (IM's) it doesnt work for......go figure.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Mar 12, 19 20:15
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I'm not saying 80 year olds should race. They just shouldn't be able to get a spot to the world championships and then go on and do a 16:07


The way I see it an 80 year old racing in 16 hours is of far more interest to me than the 90% of the field who are finishing an hour or 2 behind the winner of their AG and never had any hopes of winning.

By that logic why take any guys who aren't likely to break 9 hours? If there were no age groups then who cares about the rest of the field after the top 10?

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Last edited by: sligotri: Mar 13, 19 2:48
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
synthetic wrote:
having crashed into Cat 5 level people in our current AG model, I want catergory racing. They zigzag, block the course, etc. Too dangerous.


On a more serious note, that's one of the benefits of cycling in general with respect to skills. When you do stupid things in cycling, generally you'll get corrected. Sometimes with profanity during a race, but often after the race you'll get someone come over to talk to you quietly, and respectfully give feedback. And if that feedback is ignored, you'll eventually be run out of the community. At the Cat 1-3 level if you're very unpopular, life will be made very, very difficult for you. No one will work with you.

In triathlon there's none of that. After a race everyone kind of disappears. And the next race is mostly different people. It's cycling where you tend to see the same people a lot, and get to know them well.

I enjoy the Cat system in cycling, after coming from triathlon. It gives nice, clear goals. It's satisfying to move up.
Also, if your local upgrade coordinator is paying attention and is in tune with the local race scene, you won't get upgraded simply for being fast, they also will want a demonstration of skills. I know of riders who went off the front in a couple races they were so strong but the local upgrade guy would not give them their upgrade because he said they had no pack experience. And he was right.

A lot of this discussion tried to compare tri with cycling, but they are different animals. First off, categorization would only make sense for competitive tri, so your down to 10-20% of triathletes right there. And cycling is skill/ability/speed based. Tri is not - it's speed. It's not like in cycling thy take your 40k TT and assign you a race category. (obviously you know this, I'm just commenting in general at this point)
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Re: Wouldn't triathlon be better with Cat 1/2/3/4/5 instead of Age Groups? [fumanchu282] [ In reply to ]
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You get a place to compete. Not a place to be competitive. That's up to you. It's fine the way it is. In fact, if I can maintain the same level of performance for the next 30 years, I can qualify for Kona eventually.
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