Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during?

Jun 4, 20 13:52

Post #1 of 50 (3664 views)

The last few days I've been doing sweat rate testing and learning a lot.

2 days ago
4x12 workout @96-99% FTP
Starting weight: 153.7
Ending weight: 151.3
Fluid intake : 2
Total fluid loss: 4.4 (I also peed)

3mi Brick run at Oly pace
Fluid Intake: 0.8
Ending weight : 150
------------------------------------
Yesterday
82 min run 92F temperature in the format of 5mi E, 3x1.75 T, 1E
Starting weight 152.9
Fluid intake 3.25
Ending Weight 148
Total Fluid Loss of 8.1 lbs which blew my mind
-------------------------------------
Woke up today weighing 150lbs. Still under hydrated or low glycogen Im assuming. Maybe both This has me wondering if there would be any training benefit to go into a workout under hydrated. As when we go into an Ironman there's no way to maintain your weight 100% as you would probably go hyponatremic and consuming that much fluid would be a massive undertaking. I'm seeing data that 6% would be an acceptable loss, and a marathon winnner ended with 10% loss.
So my line of thinking is that by going into a workout somewhat depleted we are able to train for that second half of the race
Am I crazy and over complicating things?

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Last edited by: Ryanppax: Jun 4, 20 13:56

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 14:05

Post #2 of 50 (3652 views)

I used to purposely go for a 20 mile run without any water in the middle of the afternoon when it was over 100 degrees so that I would get used to being dehydrated.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 14:27

Post #3 of 50 (3629 views)

Dehydration is not something you can get training adaptation from (unlike training fasted, which doesn't train you to use less fuel but to draw more from an alternative source [stored fat]).

Training dehydrated will just reduce your performance in that workout (starting measurably at 2% loss in body mass and getting progressively worse until at 10% you probably need medical help).

I've found that hydrating, even on runs that I could complete without drinking (ex. 10mi.), helps me recover faster.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 15:17

Post #4 of 50 (3583 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

The last few days I've been doing sweat rate testing and learning a lot.

2 days ago
4x12 workout @96-99% FTP
Starting weight: 153.7
Ending weight: 151.3
Fluid intake : 2
Total fluid loss: 4.4 (I also peed)

3mi Brick run at Oly pace
Fluid Intake: 0.8
Ending weight : 150
------------------------------------
Yesterday
82 min run 92F temperature in the format of 5mi E, 3x1.75 T, 1E
Starting weight 152.9
Fluid intake 3.25
Ending Weight 148
Total Fluid Loss of 8.1 lbs which blew my mind
-------------------------------------
Woke up today weighing 150lbs. Still under hydrated or low glycogen Im assuming. Maybe both This has me wondering if there would be any training benefit to go into a workout under hydrated. As when we go into an Ironman there's no way to maintain your weight 100% as you would probably go hyponatremic and consuming that much fluid would be a massive undertaking. I'm seeing data that 6% would be an acceptable loss, and a marathon winnner ended with 10% loss.
So my line of thinking is that by going into a workout somewhat depleted we are able to train for that second half of the race

Am I crazy and over complicating things?

I do runs up to 20 miles without fluid intake in cool weather and I think I've adapted to it pretty well -- I think even if you don't get any physiological gain you can adapt psychologically to know you'll be OK if you don't drink. Started worrying about hydration much less after reading "Lore of Running" by Noakes -- he makes the point that overheating is a much bigger danger than dehydration. He also notes that if you burn a lot of glycogen and your weight goes down, your dehydration is much less than you would infer from total body weight loss. As you said, you should not drink to maintain weight -- especially on long-duration exercise in cool weather. But at 5% weight loss you're probably going to start having performance suffer at least a little.

I clocked myself at 10 oz/mile bodyweight loss once running under very hot and humid conditions -- which is a bit less extreme than your 8 lb loss example but similar in magnitude. Have also logged 10 lb gross loss on a 2.5 hour bike ride in hot conditions. It's pretty staggering, as you say!

Last edited by: twcronin: Jun 4, 20 17:27

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 15:18

Post #5 of 50 (3578 views)

no.

do you drive your car on empty to improve the engine and horse power.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 15:32

Post #6 of 50 (3561 views)

I believe there was a hypothesis out by Noakes that there is a mild performance gain for long distance running as you get dehydrated, up to point.

Keep in mind we have 2-3 lbs of water bound with glycogen to our muscles....losing this amount is normal as we burn through glycogen (its kind why aircraft actually get better fuel economy later in their flight because they weigh less and need less thrust to go the same speed because they have less weight). Same thing for us...as we lose stored water and glycogen, we actually need less energy per second (power) to move forward at exactly the same speed.

I believe Noakes hypothesized that after sweating out the initial excess mass, once we get to our normal weight then you still have a few more pound during which the penalty of dehydration is offset by needing less power to go the same speed.

The question is what's the dividing line. For a 150 lbs athlete starting at 153 lbs and ending at 147 lbs does not seem that unreasonable. At 147 lbs you've lose only 2% body weight and its barely one liter of fluid from your now shrivelled up body....6 lbs lighter at the end of half IM versus at the start is really only 3 lbs lighter, but 6 lbs is substantial amount of less fluid to haul around.

So the rough answer is you have to experiment. I personally had no detrimental slow down impact starting hot races at 140-142 lbs and ending at 136 lbs when my race weight was 138bs. I believe the lower amount of power needed means a lot less heat generation when you are lighter, so you slow down less than heavier....up to a point when you start cramping and your blood becomes like sludge.

Notionally Noakes hypothesis makes sense but each of us have to find the point that we can deal with some dehydration whilel not slowing down.

Bottom line, drink to thirst in racing...our bodies will tell us when we're getting close to underhydrated. If you have enough experience racing you get the alarm bells almost 20 min before its too late anyway. This is not huge rocket science because we're evolved to recognize dehydration and slow down in face of that...from what I recall reading or hyothalmus and kidneys all do a great job working together.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 15:34

Post #7 of 50 (3556 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

no.

do you drive your car on empty to improve the engine and horse power.

And the more you drive your car the worse the engine performance and horse power due to wearing out. So I'm going to to stop training ;)

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 16:18

Post #8 of 50 (3503 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

no.

do you drive your car on empty to improve the engine and horse power.

The car is the wrong example. the further you fly your airplane and the lighter it gets, the fuel economy improves for the same speed because you need less thrust to go the same speed since you need less lift at the same air speed (fuel tanks in an aircraft are really heavy). This is basically the analogy to running. the longer you run, if you get lighter through sweating you need less energy per second to run the same speed. But there is a point where getting more dehydrated will make it difficult to generate even the lower amount of thrust for a fixed speed.

All of this is simple physics...stupid phsysiology of humans gets in the way of just getting lighter and lighter and going just as fast on less fuel (due to less weight)...I guess its the same as when an aircraft literally runs out of fuel and can no longer generate thrust.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 16:22

Post #9 of 50 (3494 views)

Definitely going to do some experimentation with all this time on my hands. My cancelled A race is next weekend. Ill get some good data as I'll be time trialing a century

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 18:12

Post #10 of 50 (3426 views)

I am not sure dehydration has any advantage in cycling unless its a hill climb. This discussion mainly only applies for the run leg of a tri, or an open run race where being lighter is helpful.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 18:15

Post #11 of 50 (3422 views)

Very true. I was more thinking of seeing where i end up at the end; because that's when I would supposedly have to run a marathon. Can't be too dehydrated at the end

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 18:33

Post #12 of 50 (3386 views)

Ryanppax wrote:

Very true. I was more thinking of seeing where i end up at the end; because that's when I would supposedly have to run a marathon. Can't be too dehydrated at the end

I don't think you want to be dehydrated until the tail end of the marathon. Its not sustainable to be flirting on the edge and cramping. You want that to be only a remote possibility in the sprint to the finish line, not before!

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 18:34

Post #13 of 50 (3383 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

I believe there was a hypothesis out by Noakes that there is a mild performance gain for long distance running as you get dehydrated, up to point.

Keep in mind we have 2-3 lbs of water bound with glycogen to our muscles....losing this amount is normal as we burn through glycogen (its kind why aircraft actually get better fuel economy later in their flight because they weigh less and need less thrust to go the same speed because they have less weight). Same thing for us...as we lose stored water and glycogen, we actually need less energy per second (power) to move forward at exactly the same speed.

I believe Noakes hypothesized that after sweating out the initial excess mass, once we get to our normal weight then you still have a few more pound during which the penalty of dehydration is offset by needing less power to go the same speed.

The question is what's the dividing line. For a 150 lbs athlete starting at 153 lbs and ending at 147 lbs does not seem that unreasonable. At 147 lbs you've lose only 2% body weight and its barely one liter of fluid from your now shrivelled up body....6 lbs lighter at the end of half IM versus at the start is really only 3 lbs lighter, but 6 lbs is substantial amount of less fluid to haul around.

So the rough answer is you have to experiment. I personally had no detrimental slow down impact starting hot races at 140-142 lbs and ending at 136 lbs when my race weight was 138bs. I believe the lower amount of power needed means a lot less heat generation when you are lighter, so you slow down less than heavier....up to a point when you start cramping and your blood becomes like sludge.

Notionally Noakes hypothesis makes sense but each of us have to find the point that we can deal with some dehydration whilel not slowing down.

Bottom line, drink to thirst in racing...our bodies will tell us when we're getting close to underhydrated. If you have enough experience racing you get the alarm bells almost 20 min before its too late anyway. This is not huge rocket science because we're evolved to recognize dehydration and slow down in face of that...from what I recall reading or hyothalmus and kidneys all do a great job working together.

How do you start a race weighing 4 lbs more than you race weight. Is that glycogen loading in action? How long does a race have to be to benefit from glycogen loading? One thing I have noticed is as I get older I lose fluid weight much more quickly running. One hour run in hot weather takes me all day to regain the weight and start peeing dilute urine

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [dunno] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 20:53

Post #14 of 50 (3296 views)

yes , no.

You do stop training and rest all the time.
If you kept training without stopping then yes you are right, you would be doing more harm then good.

Also the more endurance you do the more horse power you lose.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 21:02

Post #15 of 50 (3280 views)

this is so wrong!!!

Dehydration is the number one thing that decrease strength and speed on muscle contraction.

stupid physiology tests show
Losing 3-6% of body wt will deplete an athlete's strength and endurance capacity by 30%.

Why do you think people get slower the longer the race is.

So you think a guy that goes from
200 lbs to 188-194 with water lose will make up for a lose of 30% of muscle load capacity????

The air plane may lose weight during that flight but still the engine has the same horse power.
Humans not the case.
Training dehydrated is asking your muscle to fire and reflex late and disseminating loading capacity not smart at all.

By the logic of training dehydrated being good , smoking would be good for training your lungs.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 23:21

Post #16 of 50 (3241 views)

The question isn't about being good, it's about adaptation. A few of the pros such as Langer regularly train 3+hours fasted example so the body adapts to burning fat.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 23:52

Post #17 of 50 (3213 views)

https://www.runnersworld.com/...ion-increases-speed/

"It seems crazy, but scientists and coaches have begun experimenting with dehydration as a training tool, using it to trigger endurance-boosting adaptations in athletes' blood. That translates into faster race times when the athletes are fully hydrated."

Last edited by: dunno: Jun 4, 20 23:53

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [dunno] [ In reply to ]

Jun 4, 20 23:57

Post #18 of 50 (3205 views)

I don't know. on a hot day with a long run of 30km i will lose 4kg, there's no way I'm going to carry 4l of water...

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 1:39

Post #19 of 50 (3168 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

no.

do you drive your car on empty to improve the engine and horse power.

That's a ridiculously inaccurate and irrelevant analogy.

Running dehydrated may harm performance in training, but that doesn't mean it'll harm performance when you are hydrated again, or when you are a little dehydrated unintentionally during racing, which probably happens anyway. I don't know if doing some training while dehydrated triggers adaptations for tolerance of dehydration, but your car analogy does nothing to inform that question. Cars don't adapt or recover. Talking about them in this context entirely misses the point. (I don't agree with the aircraft analogy either).

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [dunno] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 16:23

Post #20 of 50 (2988 views)

3 hrs of riding low to moderate intensity doesn't require anything but fat to power performance.
Water is much more important at low and moderate intensity.

Fasting is not going to help your body burn fat, just makes you train tired and slower paces.

The question isn't about being good, it's about adaptation
This makes no sense. If you adapt you get good.
You don't ever get better without adaption to form or load??

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 16:30

Post #21 of 50 (2981 views)

The analogy is not gospel is it to inform of the situation your body goes through.

What water does in the body.

Hold glucose in the muscle.
Cool the body to perform.
react in every process in muscle contraction and load and energy production system in the body.

WHY would you limit that, just like gas in your car.

If you did this workout

4 x 5 km ( no hydration)
first 5 km 25 min
next 25 min
next 28 next
30 min ( and you race dehydrated here ) you just did 5 km of poor performance and crappy form and increased running injury risk. ( also do to core temp the body thinks of this pace as a hard effort even though it is your worst result.

now if you stayed hydrated
4 x 5 km
26 min ( no loss)
25 min ( little loss)
25 min( little loss)
24 min ( maximum lost rate)

which would be a better training.
the last workout saved you 540 landing on each leg at maximum body fatigue and a cooler core body temp to recover for the next training session.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 17:45

Post #22 of 50 (2951 views)

Triathletetoth wrote:

3 hrs of riding low to moderate intensity doesn't require anything but fat to power performance.
Water is much more important at low and moderate intensity.

Fasting is not going to help your body burn fat, just makes you train tired and slower paces.

The question isn't about being good, it's about adaptation
This makes no sense. If you adapt you get good.
You don't ever get better without adaption to form or load??

You really seem to be struggling with the whole concept of adaptation. People train in heat so that the body gets used to performing in heat. Training fasted 'teaches' the body to use fat instead of glucose. And there is research that suggests training dehydrated to train the body to perform better when it is hydrated.

There is plenty of articles and research out there on this stuff..

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 18:48

Post #23 of 50 (2924 views)

I do not think you even read what I wrote. Firstly I was referring to perfoemance in racing and that you are supposed to burn through some liquid from race morning weight that should be 2-3 lbs higher than actual body weight due to be completely topped up on glycogen. From there you burn through stores and liquid and get back to your normal weight at which point you are not even dehydrated just at normal function vs fully loaded. From. There you still have fat to burn, on course nutrition and protein to burn through too to get to the finish line as fast as possible. This can include a degree of dehydration from normal body weight before muscles cannot contract with sufficient force. Starting a race 2-3 lbs up and ending 2-3 lbs down is not going to impair anyone's race. Sure if you get into 4-8 lbs down on an average size triathlete this will hurt for sure. Like anything it's not black and white and everyone will find their spot where it works for their physiology.

I would not practice this in training. It's just what happens in racing on hot days anyway. At some point you it is hard to hydrate enough without going hyponatremia and diluting blood sodium on a long hit race.

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 5, 20 22:04

Post #24 of 50 (2898 views)

Limiting hydration is insanity. Hydration determines blood volume. The more dehydrated you get, the thicker your blood gets and the greater deterioration you get. Youre not even training the muscles anymore, youre just limiting them with shitty blood.

Bring as much water as you can. Get plenty of salt in. Keep sugars rolling

Re: Would there be a training benefit to go into some workouts under hydrated or drinking sparingly during? [Ryanppax] [ In reply to ]

Jun 6, 20 1:51

Post #25 of 50 (2841 views)

My understanding is your body can heat adapt, so you sweat less to maintain body temperature. If not seen anything recently that suggests deliberate dehydration can cause an adaptation.
I have read that athletes in the 50s and 60s would do deliberate dehydration so they wouldn't need so much water on race day.
I'm prepared to change my mind if anyone has good evidence

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.