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Would the WTC consider this...
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I know the WTC and likely other organizations have a policy of not allowing a full refund or a deferral into another race for athletes that can / do not race for various reasons. Partial refunds are offered at times, and while getting $100 of the sometimes $700 one spends on an entry back is better than nothing, I think that for the most part, it is not the money people are interested in, it is competing in and hopefully finishing the race. I finally qualified for Kona this year and for the weeks / months leading up to the race I tried to keep myself in a bubble. While I had no dreams of wining anything in Kona, I wanted to go there and compete at as close to 100% as I could. I have a job that allows me to be as proactive as I want or as reactive as I want. I normally choose the proactive approach but not wanting to get hurt I chose reactive for the 1.5 months I had between Whistler and Kona. It killed me, but I knew there was a reason for it. Well literally 3 days before I left to Kona, I was at training for work and because of circumstances beyond my control I suffered what a doctor LATER told me was likely a grade 2 almost 3 sprain / strain. It hurt like hell, I thought my ankle / shin was broken. Knowing Kona was 10 days away, I didn't bother going to the doctor. I didn't want to know. I didn't want to be told that I could / should not do the race. I would rest and ice it between now and the race and deal with it after. I had been trying for 8 yrs to make it to Kona and by God I was gonna do it. Well my ankle / shin swole up like one of those old ladies you see with a walker and a purple calf shoved into a shoe that looks too small. I couldn't even walk fast enough to keep up with my kids. I spent the week before the race sitting by the pool with and icebag on my shin, being jealous of all the others out training. I bought all the compression shit I could find etc.. I went to urgent care in Kona and got a shot in my ass to help with the swelling. I think the doc there told me I may do more damage if I compete, but I stuck my fingers in my ear and went la la la la until I saw her lips stop moving. I managed to limp around the course on race day and finished, but I have that feeling of being cheated. I know I could have done way better. Walked most of the Marathon and was about 1:20 slower than my KQ time. I went to the doctor the day after I got back and got a lecture about what I had done. It does not appear as if I did any permanent damage, but I have yet to run again since the race and was told not to for another 2 weeks at least.

My point is, I can understand no refund or deferral if a person is just not prepared to race. However, if a person can show with a doctors note that they can not physically race because of an injury that person should be allowed a full refund or deferral. The WTC could come up with their own form and guidelines so it is standardized. I understand that the entry money is used to get permits, security etc based on the number of competitors but I can not believe that the number of people this would apply to in a race would cause any real impact. For the championships like Kona or wherever the 70.3 WC is at that year, I would even suggest that it would make the competition better. You want the competitors to be at 100% when the race. In the case of the WC races I would also be fine with a validation process like those people who get a lottery spot. To validate the deferral the athlete would have to compete in a 70.3 or IM that next race season. Again I do not think it is the money that MOST of the people who sign up for these races are worried about. People spend months / yrs training to do these races and want to be at 100% going into the race.

I am sure there are people out there with a similar story to me that have done permanent damage to them selves because they felt like well i have trained and paid for this race and this is my only chance so I am going to do it.

I think this would be a win win for the WTC. They would get people at their best and thus have better competition. I also think that they would gain some karma points from some of the WTC haters out there that see them as the bad guy just out to make money and not care about the athletes.

Just a thought...
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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Dan has written extensively about having a more "humane" policy with regards to this. Hopefully he'll chime in.

The problem is that a "doctor's note" is just so easy to get that it's really not credible as a valid excuse. But with a good policy, it's also not necessary. There's no reason not to allow for a good exchange/transfer policy for entries.

Read this - http://www.slowtwitch.com/...fer_Policy_3236.html

That's really what I think we all want. And there's no reason not to have it.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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It would also require, at the minimum, one more full time employee that has some medical background, to sift through all of the requests, both bogus and real. That expense would only benefit the athletes. Hence, its not going to happen.

56-11...the only way to fly
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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I had a similar situation this year. I qualified for the first time at CDA and a week later got incredibly sick and was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. I did everything possible to be able to just show up and walk through the marathon, but it would not have been safe to do so. If I had even tried, it would have been really ugly. I understand why their policy is the way it is, but a deferral for legitimate medical reasons would seem reasonable to me. I'd have been more than willing to even pay a penalty to be able to race next year when I had time to get healthy.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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In principal I agree with you. But as a business, WTC already has a "win, win" business model. They oversell a percentage of the race knowing that a percentage won't even show due to any number of reasons. So despite their measly $150 refund on a $750 entry fee, it's surprising that they even allow that. Their races sell out in minutes. As a result, they have NO incentive to improve upon the $150.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [Bryan0721] [ In reply to ]
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They already do it. They just prefer us europeans that's all.

https://ironmaneurope.wufoo.com/forms/m6zvk3a0ps2kdp/
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [OchAye] [ In reply to ]
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OchAye wrote:
They already do it. They just prefer us europeans that's all.

https://ironmaneurope.wufoo.com/forms/m6zvk3a0ps2kdp/
Yes and it takes months to be refunded.


_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Dan has written extensively about having a more "humane" policy with regards to this. Hopefully he'll chime in.

The problem is that a "doctor's note" is just so easy to get that it's really not credible as a valid excuse. But with a good policy, it's also not necessary. There's no reason not to allow for a good exchange/transfer policy for entries.

Read this - http://www.slowtwitch.com/...fer_Policy_3236.html

That's really what I think we all want. And there's no reason not to have it.

To some degree, I prefer WTC's no transfer policy and here is why. The moment ou have a transfer policy, what happens is that i just buy an entry to every Ironman that I know will sell out. Then I transfer it to someone who wants it, but on the "black market" I ask the person to transfer me $100, $200, $1000....(pick your number) before I transfer the entry to them through whatever formal system that WTC/active implements. So now we have this secondary black market set of transactions around WTC entries. Events end up selling out earlier than they should because there end up being all these buyers who have no intention to race, but just to resell their entry. How would this be solved? And I am not even sure there would be anything technically illegal about charging a premium on your transfer in a separate monetary transaction outside the formal transfer process.

I would prefer a better refund policy. $150 kind of sucks. Maybe $250 (around 1/3 money back) would be more reasonable.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [OchAye] [ In reply to ]
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For Europeans that's a sweet deal. Everybody else racing WTC events are getting screwed. Curious as to why the WTC offers that for European venues and not NA venues.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I understand your feelings on a transfer policy and I agree with them 100%. What I was talking about is a deferral policy, what is your thought on that? The same person for the same race just one year later. They either paid for / qualified for the race this/that year and can not do it for physical reasons beyond their control.

On a side note, in Kona if you remember a tall guy with bright pink compression socks that between mile 8 and 24ish would "run" past you to an aid station, stop and fill his right calf sleeve / sock up with ice walk 100 or 200 yard past the aid station as you passed him, then before the next aid station he would run buy you again only to repeat the above, that was me. I wanted to say hi but I was in too much pain!!
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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LOL...I was in too much pain managing my torn left hamstring and was wanting to stop but was worried that if I stopped it would totally lock up and I'd never "re start" again with a violent hamstring cramp! I was wondering why I kept re passing the same guy and what on earth he was doing in each aid station!!!! Nothing like doing Kona on broken body parts....yes, if I could get a deferral that would have been awesome, but I knew the rules, so did it on broken body parts. In reality, in that case, I got the finish done, which basically swings around to WTC position that "most people will use deferral as an excuse and use up a slot both this year and next year"!!!

In general, I think that WTC's oversell/limited refund approach works. I hate waiting lists. In 1993, I was on the waiting list for Ironman Roth and the RD (Detlef Kuhnel) at the time, told me to fly over and I'd be "in". I have to say that a verbal even from a race director was not that comforting when it involved all that travel plus doing all the training not knowing if you will be in the race or not kind of sucks. I like the fact that we know that we are in a race when we complete the process on active.com. A 33-50% refund would be nicer. If someone can explain a way that a transfer policy can be instituted without a secondary inflated market for entry resells, I am all ears. I just have not thought our how the "secondary market transaction" can be wiped out. I don't want guys charging my $1000 in the background on paypal while I pay WTC $750 for the original entry. Frankly, I 'd rather pay WTC the entire thing if I have to (not that I want to), because they are the entity delivering the value and if ends up being worth that much in the market, then they shoudl get it all....I really don't want scalpers at the WTC stadium.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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they should sell insurance on the fee.... if you get hurt, you make a claim for your fee back w/deductible... if you lie, your are committing insurance fraud...

also, the insurance company - not wtc - will underwrite your injury claim to be sure its legit...


no deferral policy, would be a disaster.... last thing we need is ticket brokers buying up ironman slots....
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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From a business perspective, there would be a one time hit to allow competitors to defer their entry by one year due to injury. Assume that a certain percentage of competitors won't be able to take part due to injury (say 5%) for any event. If the policy in 2014 allows you to defer, their scenerio looks like this:

2014 - 5% of entrant's fees now "deferred revenue" instead of "revenue"
2015 - Gain 5% revenue from 2014's deferrals; lose 5% from 2015's injuries.
2016 - Gain 5% revenue from 2015's deferrals; lose 5% from 2016's injuries.
Etc...

Allow each entrant to do this once, and make them submit a Dr's note; but don't require checking for the specific injury (take them at their word).
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [jhouckwsu] [ In reply to ]
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>>However, if a person can show with a doctors note that they can not physically race because of an injury that person should be allowed a full refund or deferral.
>:>

unfortunately you would not qualify for refund /deferral in your scenario, by your own action.

you could race, you did race.
Case closed in any impairment rating situation.


>

RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [raygovett] [ In reply to ]
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Lawyer??? Just guessing by your getting me on a technicality and "case closed". Yes I did race, but had I gone to my doctor BEFORE the race he would have told me not to because I could have done serious permanent damage to my leg. Had I and been told that, I would have followed his advice. That is why I did not go before the race, I did not want to hear him tell me that. Had there been a deferral procedure in place I would have gone to the doctor. If I had been told you can race but it is gonna hurt like hell I would have, and in this case it did.
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That's why the transfer service would have to be single resale point not an open market.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Would the WTC consider this... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
they should sell insurance on the fee..
We did that for our 2013 race. It was trivially easy to set up. We pay a percentage fee on registrations as our insurance premium, and if someone has a medical, they just document it from the doctor, and receive a 100% refund straight from the insurance company. We had 11 athletes that went this route in 2013 - most for issues starting up in the 45 days leading in to the race. Without the insurance, we'd be in a position of having to ignore them, or come up with and maintain a policy of our own - this way is not only simpler, it's better.


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