I'd rank them in this order in terms of chance of success: Allen, Molina, Scott, Tinley. Tinley was the slowest swimmer of the four.

Yeah, I remember him as being a relatively weaker swimmer, but was it good enough to get out with the bunch in ITU, or at least the second pack?

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I don't think any of them could win an ITU race today. I do think Allen and Molina would place top 10. I think training and nutrition have advanced too far. The top in ITU races are incredible at all events.

Well, I think they'd have access to the same training, gear and nutrition that the current crop of elites has. Take that off the table.

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Ahh. I thought you were saying those guys in their day vs. todays crop. In that case I think Allen could compete.

Interesting hypothetical... Maybe Mark Allen might be complete enough to compete in today's fields... But very much more than other eras where you could hide your weaknesses better, you really need to be strong S-B-R in order to compete... In non-drafting, the odds of all 4 go up, but in the draft-legal reality of the current day, Not sure I would bet money on the results of the golden-agers... Do I think that Dave Scott or Mark Allen could compete with the Langes and Frodos at Kona, with the same equipment and modern training, I wouldn't bet against them... but in terms of the ITU circuit, much less optimistic...

I think those guys would all compete favorably today - but in ITU especially Molina. Short course was his strength and he was (still is) a very strong swimmer.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Not a chance. Not even top 30.

In "Road Racers and Their Training" (1995), Allen lists his "best times" as follows:

"5-K, 14:37; 10-K, 29:59; marathon, 2:40:04 (in Ironman); Ironman triathlon, 8:07:45."


If he could have kept up with the pack on the bike he would have been dropped like a hot potato on the run.

So....

a) how many ITU guys run a faster 10k than that (on a certified road course) today using MUCH better shoes than were available to Mark back in the day?
b) What about the other 3?

remember - we are allowing them to have modern equipment and modern training & nutrition knowledge in this thought experiment.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Might have to back it down to 20, but I think the following 20 either have or have had the capacity to outrun Allen.


2x Brownlee, Mola, Yee, Gomez, Frodeno, Haus, Vidal, Luis, Coninx, Riderer, Silva, 3 x Norwegians, Schoeman, Murray, Perreira, Bryukhankov and Birtwhistle

By transitivity the rest would obviously fail :)

Based on what? ITU run splits? I believe many of those courses are short. Brownlee ran 28:37 10,000 on a track with spikes and a draft. What would that be on a road course with running shoes from 1988? Then what would that be if he only had training info available in 1988?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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... or after racing like its a 40km solo breakaway

I believe the London 2012 run course was 10.0km, which is why they wanted AB to go under 29. AB even mentions this in an interview. From the run times in London I find it hard to believe that Allen would have placed in the top 10.

But it is quite typical that old timers believe that everything and everyone was better back in the days. I will probably be the same in 20 years time when some new super talent comes along. "No, no, AB would have wiped the floor with that brat".

Only difference being that I'm actually right

Mark would be competitive as he would morph himself into today's ITU tactics...the other guys would be off the back by the run. Maybe Molina would be there to mile 5 of the run, but I think today's ITU has faster last mile closing speed.

obviously I have no way to know, but I think it is unlikely that the london course was a full 10km. At the time I think AB's 10,000m (on the track) PR was 29:3X. Then in a triathlon where he swam and biked really really hard he runs a 29:07 on the road? No way.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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x2 on that. You just don't run 2 seconds per kilometer faster after a killer swim or bike without a short course!

.... Olympic fever on home turf gives you wings? wiggins too

I love it when people just throw shit into the argument based on nothing.

AB says in an interview that when he was told he ran a 29.07 he replied with "the course was short". Then an official stated that the course was controlled and it indeed was 10.0k.

His time on the track after the post olympic blues was 28.32. There is quite a bit from 28.32 to 29.32.....

https://www.bbc.com/...t/athletics/22342557

To put this in perspective: AB would have lapped Allen and finished his 10k before Allen had reached the bell. The time between Farahs olympic gold time in London and AB´s 10k is a lot less than the time from AB´s 10k to Allens 10k.

But of course spikes would have gotten Allen from 29.59 to 28.32

Try 3-4 sec slower per k mate :)

I believe any itu course has an “allowance” to be within the distance.

Of course in 2016 at Richmond itu with officials out there measuring the course (cus I was rolling it to beside them). It was 2.68mi long and of course “announced” as a 5k. But yes an Olympic distance race you hope it’s much closer to the distance but I do find it interesting that AB initially said “short” with his time/effort/knowledge.

The whole definite run splits are kinda wonky to even argue imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

In the Elite Briefings at ITU events they have to announce the actual distances, because otherwise coaches will notice when they go an roll out the courses... certainly when you get to WTS level for sure, but even for conti cups... What made Mola's 10k off the bike so impressive in Montreal on the non-flat course was that the course was legit (the guys who measured it off are very precise, and it was bang on)...

Like I said regardless of splits I think it’s silly to say X would be out cus he ran only X run split 30 years ago compared to today’s athletes.

But yes if your only going to compare someone’s PR and place it in today’s sport then fine. I just think with all things it’s context.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Most coaches and athletes would rather get an accurate number regardless of that number than just the “announced” race distance. It’s when it’s announced as X but it’s way off that makes the sport look stupid and pisses everyone off.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think those four are all special athletes and if they was all coming up now and going into SC rather than leaping straight in at IM then yes they would be competitive, hard to predict how much so.

However if you brought them all back in there prime in a time machine then no, I doubt any would make top 20 ITU.