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Working marathons into your IM seasons
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It seems like the general rule of thumb is training to run a PR marathon and PR Ironman in the same season don't play together nicely, especially for athletes with histories of running injuries.

Ideal for me would be 1-2 HIMs in spring/early summer and either
a) IM in late summer (e.g., Mt. Tremblant in late Aug or Chatty in late Sept), and then build into Chicago Marathon in late Oct.
or b) take a short season break mid-summer, then Chicago marathon, then roll right into a winter IM (e.g., FL, AZ, Australia)

My coach says scrap the marathon and get to work on the bike, which is where the low hanging fruit is -- or scrap the IM and spend summer/autumn training for Chicago running a 2:55 is really what I want to do. Seems sensible. But can I do both?

I like running marathons, and I also like doing Ironman. For those who do both, how do you make it work? Alternate years/season or something?
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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They dont; I tried it this year.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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If it is something you really want to do and enjoy.

Start with a Triathlon Season, varied distance up to your Ironman -> Late Season Marathon -> Dedicated recovery -> Repeat

I.E.
- Shorter distance run races & triathlons
- 70.3 race(s) into summer
- Ironman (August / September / Early October)
- Marathon (November / Early December)

Very generic idea, but it works if you want both in the same year. Adapt as needed based on key races.

If you are looking for PR type races in both IM/26.2 it's doable but it can take its toll mentally & physically and likely not possible on a year to year basis

-------------------------
Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I am kind of in the same Predicament. So far my racing schedule looks like this:

Mid Dec, 2019: Marathon
Early May, 2020: IMCHOO70.3
NOV 2020: IMFL

I may look to squeeze in another marathon in the summer, or maybe even in March timeframe. For me, my first goal I set was to qualify for Boston. Which I still haven't done yet. So, I am not forgetting about that goal, and I want to accomplish it hopefully to run the 2021 Boston.

- Jordan

My Strava
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I was doing marathons before Ironmans. I was a good runner but always injured. Ironman seems to be the way to go for me. However I do miss being a pure marathon runner. The last full marathon I did was in 2017 after 2 HIMs and one full IM. I ran the Barbados marathon in early December. I had a good base of fitness from my triathlons. My coach was good about having me do a lot of cycling and swimming as cross training to avoid injuries. So the training wasn't too much different from a full IM except my Saturday bike rides were usually 2-3 hour mountain or cross bike rides with nothing too strenuous. And then Sunday would be my long run. And I'd have one day mid week where I'd do 8-10 miles with some tempo running and/or intervals/speed work. I am female and was 47 years old for that marathon, so nothing too crazy for me. The great thing about Barbados was that it was hot as F! So my running pace was a good bit slower compared to doing a cool fall marathon where I live. So just going slower in the heat was a safer bet than trying to pound out 26 miles at a much faster pace risking injury. If I was going to do another marathon I might do another Caribbean marathon in December. I liked the timing. There is also a marathon in the Cayman islands in December but haven't done it. Could be a nice race-cation. Barbados was really nice too! I would recommend it.

Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [Dave Latourette] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dave --

That seems to make the most sense... moving the IM a bit earlier and then extending the season to do the marathon in Nov/Dec as long as things are still going well. Optimizing for the IM is more important.

I guess using the same frame work, I could also pick an earlier IM (i.e. June/July) if I really wanted to do Chicago in Oct --- was really hoping to run that with a good old friend of mine.

I've always been reluctant to do the full winter marathon. Every time I've done that I end up injured the following spring. Just seems like I need to take a break from big running miles and work on intensity/speed over winters to make gains injury-free.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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My n=1. My best marathon was 18 weeks after an IM. Post-IM was 5 weeks recovery (with little running/biking due to a foot injury, though I did some mountain climbing that had been on my bucket list), 1 week to ramp up my running, and a 12-week marathon plan. Ended up with a 35-minute PR / BQ / sub-3.


wintershade wrote:
That seems to make the most sense... moving the IM a bit earlier and then extending the season to do the marathon in Nov/Dec as long as things are still going well. Optimizing for the IM is more important.

I would definitely give yourself time to recover from the IM, and then have a solid 10-14 week marathon block. Another benefit of November-December is that you may get better temperatures for a fast marathon.

wintershade wrote:
Just seems like I need to take a break from big running miles and work on intensity/speed over winters to make gains injury-free.

Maybe a marathon plan with a bit less volume (like 40-55 mpw) and more intensity? You will have the endurance base after the IM build.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I pulled this one year, did IMLP and the RnR Savannah in the beginning of November.

The training was going really well, long runs were productive, felt good.

Can't speak to results though, since my daughter was born 2.5 weeks out, I basically tapered by doing nothing and not sleeping. And the nice fall race turned into a 90+* slug fest where they cut 4 miles off the course due to people dropping like flies (one death that day).

Should have been a PR without those two things though.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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Coming from running I used to do 2 A marathons per year and loved to keep at least one. So I've done both:

- winter marathon cycle + spring marathon + fall IM (2x)
- fall IM + marathon a 5 weeks after

I think this is one of the reason I hit a plateau in my training. Yes, it's a lot of fun. Yes, I had good results. But I think it was too much for my body to truly recover and improve.
Next year I'm not doing it.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [ask77nl] [ In reply to ]
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I am in the same boat as you, but only doing 70.3s next year.

I really do not want to drop the marathon, as I too would like to qualify for Boston (3:00).

I have Des Moines 70.3 mid June, and Traverse City 70.3 late August, which does not give a ton of time (~6 weeks) to get the mileage up for Chicago, mid Oct.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I've done it before. Last year I ran Boston, and then did IMMT (and then Lake Placid 70.3). The trick is to have separate training cycles for each. Typically my seasons are structured as follows;

Spring: Marathon.
Summer/Fall: Triathlon (typically 70.3s but every few years an IM)

When training for the marathon, the trick is not to spend all your TSS on the run and that you use your swim/bike sessions to add cardio but without the threat of injury. I'll save my quality sessions though for the run (long runs, intervals) though will occasionally throw in a few long rides, so that my bike doesn't go stale, etc. Then when it comes time to switch to more of a tri focus, you can put the run a bit more into maintenance mode.

Given that I live in Canada where snow prevents long rides outside for half the year but I can still run, I use the early season marathon as a way to keep up my training over the winter. Though admittedly, my run is by far my best leg of the triathlon.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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The one time I did a spring marathon was a season I did 70.3s. But I did Boston then first 70.3 was Muncie in June. I focused on running but still did bike and swim workouts then after the marathon I took a longer run break then got back into running. But the big thing for me was I recovered pretty fast it seemed. That would be the issue. I think option A would be best because you can go all in on the marathon and a solid 6 week build up should be good. Not ideal but depending on how fast you need to run that might be good enough.

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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a 3:00:xx marathoner, so a little bit slower than you. My fastest marathons have always been post IM season. I usually give myself 2 weeks post-IM to recover and then hit full-on standalone marathon training.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. Do you think running Spring marathons comes at the expense of your performance as a triathlete. For example, if you spend your winter/spring in the shed crushing out sweet spot rides on the bike trainer, would your bike performance catch up to your run performance and ultimately make you a faster triathlete?
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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Between living in Arizona and Work, my off-season like most is in the winter. My 'A' Race was Traverse City 70.3, so I've kind of shut it down and I'm recovery mode and starting to rebuild volume and hitting the weights. But the fall and winter, when Slowtwitch does Run 100 is the perfect time to do your marathon running. So for next year, I will be doing IMAZ. Traverse City again. So if I back plan off that I "need" to do a marathon.

So I'm going to do the same race I used for my half-marathon last year: Phoenix-Mesa Marathon.

This is what I've got in my racing schedule for Running

Local 5k
Turkey Trot 10k
Hot Chocolate 15k
Rock n' Roll Half-Marathon
Phoenix Marathon

Then we start local tri-season with a Spring in March.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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When you say stand-alone marathon training, what do you mean? Just minimal maintenance-mode swim/bike for some recovery and cross training. How long of a marathon build do you do post IM? How does the MPW compare to your run MPW during IM training?
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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No swim. No bike. All runs all the time. That's what my standalone marathon training entails.

My IM run miles were in the 40s per week. My standalone marathon training miles were in the 80-90+ miles per week range, so about 2x of the IM run miles. My builds have been typically in the 11-14 weeks range. My fastest marathon came during the 11 weeks build, but I was in PR Ironman shape that year. I'm in the 45-50 AG bracket.

I just did an IM a week ago. I plan on doing a standalone marathon in Feb and then follow that up with an Ironman next August. It'll be a longer build on this go-around so we'll see how I do :)



wintershade wrote:
When you say stand-alone marathon training, what do you mean? Just minimal maintenance-mode swim/bike for some recovery and cross training. How long of a marathon build do you do post IM? How does the MPW compare to your run MPW during IM training?


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
It seems like the general rule of thumb is training to run a PR marathon and PR Ironman in the same season don't play together nicely, especially for athletes with histories of running injuries.

Ideal for me would be 1-2 HIMs in spring/early summer and either
a) IM in late summer (e.g., Mt. Tremblant in late Aug or Chatty in late Sept), and then build into Chicago Marathon in late Oct.
or b) take a short season break mid-summer, then Chicago marathon, then roll right into a winter IM (e.g., FL, AZ, Australia)

My coach says scrap the marathon and get to work on the bike, which is where the low hanging fruit is -- or scrap the IM and spend summer/autumn training for Chicago running a 2:55 is really what I want to do. Seems sensible. But can I do both?

I like running marathons, and I also like doing Ironman. For those who do both, how do you make it work? Alternate years/season or something?
I tried it twice, first with a goal of BQ then next a goal of a good Boston. Both years involved a spring marathon. During marathon training I backed off to 1-2 swims a week and also backed off bike volume and intensity (but still biked 3x/week). I'd then build to a late spring or early summer 70.3 and a fall IM. It worked ok, but you do have to make compromises.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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wintershade wrote:
Interesting. Do you think running Spring marathons comes at the expense of your performance as a triathlete. For example, if you spend your winter/spring in the shed crushing out sweet spot rides on the bike trainer, would your bike performance catch up to your run performance and ultimately make you a faster triathlete?

Likely. Though I'm not completely run focused during my marathon builds - I'm still getting in 2x rides or more a week during the winter. Once the snows melt, I start commuting to work for 9-10hrs a week until it gets cold again. My fastest swim times tend to be in the spring also, since a pool is the same temp regardless of the time of year and I'd prefer to be riding when the weather is nice.

There's definately room to improve as an overall triathlete - I came away from my last Tri (Maine 70.3) knowing that my low hanging fruit is on the Bike. I came out of the swim 38th/165 in my AG, had the 30th fastest ride, and then the 2nd fastest run in the AG (and barely at that!).

Next year I have no marathon planned with a heavy bike focus over the winter, so we'll see what happens. (I do end my 2019 season with the NYC marathon in November, though so it's not like I wont have recently done a run focus)
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [zoom] [ In reply to ]
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zoom wrote:
No swim. No bike. All runs all the time. That's what my standalone marathon training entails.

My IM run miles were in the 40s per week. My standalone marathon training miles were in the 80-90+ miles per week range, so about 2x of the IM run miles. My builds have been typically in the 11-14 weeks range. My fastest marathon came during the 11 weeks build, but I was in PR Ironman shape that year. I'm in the 45-50 AG bracket.

I just did an IM a week ago. I plan on doing a standalone marathon in Feb and then follow that up with an Ironman next August. It'll be a longer build on this go-around so we'll see how I do :)



wintershade wrote:
When you say stand-alone marathon training, what do you mean? Just minimal maintenance-mode swim/bike for some recovery and cross training. How long of a marathon build do you do post IM? How does the MPW compare to your run MPW during IM training?

Up to 90mpw for a 3:## marathon?
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [wintershade] [ In reply to ]
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hey there. I'm in the same situation. my 2020 season thus far is 2x 70.3 in june/july, an ironman in august and hopefully a good marathon end of october/november.
I'm not recovering well/fast after marathons/ironmans so spring marathons or ironmans are not ideal for me. Resting 3 weeks when the days are long and the weather is nice is a pita :-)

Anyway, my goals are more 70.3 focused next year. So i'll see what fitness/injuries I have mid season and then tackle the IM and hopefully perform reasonably well on the marathon (just north of 3h i'm afraid ;-) ). I don't plan on dropping swimming/biking though. A little more focus on running and upping the run mileage if possible but that's it.
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Re: Working marathons into your IM seasons [Triheaven] [ In reply to ]
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What is your question? :)

My first marathon @35 mpw was 4:43. Never ran anything more than 1 mile until age 30. The 1 mile run was when they made us run a mile in a high school gym class.


__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."
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