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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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cripes rod. 2 inches from your leg?
so sorry about the crash, but damn i'm glad you're alive and well dude!!!!!

i'll just add you to the list of tri peeps to worry about. poor barry is already gettin' my naggs all the time (call me when you guys are done with the ride!, etc etc etc)

stupid freaking fork and stuff!!!
Last edited by: kittycat: Feb 2, 08 20:00
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Well, the good news is that my LBS will be glad to see me – as of late, I have been giving most of my money to Ergvideo.

I have this weird associational memory and this discussion took me back to CDA a few year ago. When you leave town you have a series of climbs and then some rollers and then you turn left and then there is a pretty decent climb. On the second loop I saw a guy walking down with the rear derailleur off the bike. I will not state the brand but it was carbon. I just never thought about it before.

I have this routine I do about how there are better ways to die than…..(I won’t do it here). But there are better ways to go down than having the frick’n bars break when they are on top of a Ti frame.

Many thanks for the advice.
------------------------------

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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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Glad you're OK. Seeing posts like this make me stick to my "overbuild it" mentality from the MTB days! Takes more than some broken carbon to take out a Ranger, right?

******************************
If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [lunchbox] [ In reply to ]
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LOL! Yup! Hell, I'm proud of my "war wounds" ;0

Lead the Way!

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
http://freeflite.com/page.cfm?pageid=161

Glad you're okay Rod!
Odd, Rod's fork is neither :-)
Right, but that would just make me that much more leary of another Wolf fork.

______________
HEDmafia.com
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cslone] [ In reply to ]
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I would put a Wolf fork on my bike in the AM and ride it. Rod had some SUPER bad luck. However, the initial cause of this failure may have been a mechanic the day the bike was built...and it just took till now. THAT is why I do all my own work!

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I would put a Wolf fork on my bike in the AM and ride it. Rod had some SUPER bad luck. However, the initial cause of this failure may have been a mechanic the day the bike was built...and it just took till now. THAT is why I do all my own work!

Hey, I've had one component failure in five years, and it wasn't even my fault. A woman bought a bike from us and the chain (A Shimano Dura Ace 10s chain) failed at the factory connecting pin in the middle of an upshift. The derailleur, being caught up on the now separated chain, was torqued into the wheel where it was eventually brought around right into her driveside seatstay...sufficiently damaging her frame. Needless to say, she was given a new frame...and we were just given a warranty credit, not a chain, so we could choose ''something that [didn't] suck'', as they put it.

As far as overbuilt = tough and light = weak, I've found a lot of surprising examples to the contrary. Both my Bontrager RXL Carbon Aero and Zipp 303s have been more than adequately tough. KMC chains, even the X10SL, are significantly more durable than their Shimano and SRAM counterparts. I've got three broken Dura Ace chains to my name (great way to f*ck up your STI levers) and a SRAM 991 chain when I rode 9s. To date I've broken 0 KMC chains, both DX10 and X10SL.
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [NextMerckx] [ In reply to ]
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Seems like we need a fork autopsy before this thread devolves any further...

;-)
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Same reason I do my own work too. But Rod's fork makes the third Wolf that I have seen catastrophically fail in the last 4 years. Couple that with the recall I came across and I'll keep letting you guys ride the Wolfs. :p

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HEDmafia.com
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Chip-
I am starting to come around to your view on this as well. It seems as though the only way to get things done right is to do them yourself. In Rod's case, however, I am going to put at least some of the blame on Cervelo for the incorrect installation. Take just a few minutes and read over the thread, "Can you guys check out my fork insert" on the Cervelo forum and you will see that there has been at least 3 different sets of instructions regarding the minimum insertion of the aluminum insert. Even after all of the commotion on the forum and, most likely, at several Cervelo dealers, there is still a disagreement between Cervelo and True Temper/Alpha Q on what the measurement should be. That said, I still think that the shop should be held accountable for the improper installation. From my very limited knowledge and ability with a bike wrench, I am keenly aware that there are several parts of a bike that you simply have to get right the first time and a fork is one of them.

Rod's case is not one of bad luck, but rather sloppy work by a mechanic. Had the fork been installed correctly and a squirrel jumped into his spokes thereby causing a chain reaction of events leading to the snapping of his fork, then I think that bad luck would be the prime suspect. :) What really irritates me is that Cervelo and, apparently Cervelo dealers, did not act proactively to address the improperly installed fork situation. Short of a recall, as has been suggested by several posters on the Cervelo forum, how is a person supposed to know that his/her fork is installed incorrectly? I just can't believe that Cervelo dealers, or Cervelo, have not made efforts to make sure that SL forks were installed correctly.

I think that Rod's case is very troubling because he did not have a ton of spacers above his headtube and really did think that the insert was far enough into the headtube. The usual scenerio is that a customer wants the bike that doesn't fit and gets that giant stack of spacers thereby making the fork installation faulty. I can't believe it happened to Rod since he is obviously on the right bike.

I am going to be good for a day or two and not make too much noise about this. I have an SLC with a Wolf SL fork in my basement waiting to be built up and have spent a lot of time watching this issue. As I mentioned above, I am **shocked** that this is the first time this has come up on ST. Some people have some explaining to do and I'll wait for them do that before starting my own thread(s).
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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i had a friend of mine with the same problem, but it wasnt as bad since he noticed something was wrong before it snapped.

i really dont like that aluminum insert, it opens to many space to instalation errors

=====================================
S�rgio Marques
When it hurts is when it feels good ;-)
Sergio-Marques.com
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I just can't believe that Cervelo dealers, or Cervelo, have not made efforts to make sure that SL forks were installed correctly.[/quote]

given the many possible disasterous consequences of this type of failure, just give it an expensive lawsuit or two and, believe me, they'll make the effort. if the carrot doesn't work, the stick nearly always does.





Where would you want to swim ?
Last edited by: GregX: Aug 26, 08 5:45
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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I am very happy with my Ritchey WCS fork and that fork is very light and stiff and has to endure my 190 pounds. Yikes.

H
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I put a post over on the Cervelo forum with the 5 PAGES of issues with the Wolf SL fork and sent off an e-mail to the CS guy. I never new about any issues at all until know. My LBS that did the install is closed today, but I'll be dropping by with bike/fork to show them for sure! They are the only Cervelo dealer with a 100 miles of me (in a major metro city as well).

I can definitely see a lawsuit some day re: this issue. That won't be from me since I assume all risks riding and thankfully I wasn't really hurt - but someone is going to be. I really dislike those kinds of lawsuits anyway (right or wrong). This is a $500 fork on a $5,000 bike, so one can assume it is going to be ridden hard and fast by some attorney!

Again, for others, if you have a Wolf SL fork bought before the last 6 months or so (when the longer aluminum insert was sent already glued into the steerer tube), please take off your stem and check!

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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Rod,
sorry to hear about your crash. Sounds like you are ok. Would not want our personal ST foot doc get hurt.
I have the same fork on my R3, will have to get it checked.
I think, if I was worried about quality I would probably go with a Serrota fork. They are very worried about this kind incident. Talked to Ben Serrota once at my LBS
and he went on and on about having sleepless nites over broken carbon parts.
Their forks are made in the US and the quality control is excellent. Little heavier and of course quiet expensive.
Broke my Time fork clean off in 07 when a stick locked up the wheels and sent me flying over the bars at 25mph landing with a broken collarbone.
Could not blame the fork though.
Axel
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I really dislike those kinds of lawsuits anyway (right or wrong).[/quote]

not me. i dislike the "i lost my 34th postion in my AG because my fork cracked" kinds of lawsuits, but i fully support "i am now a parapalegic because my fork cracked" kinds of lawsuits.

and yes, it would be great if we had neither kind of lawsuits, but the U.S. legal system is based (as is human psychology) on 'counting tombstones', not on taking proactive action.

sorry, man, but welcome to planet earth ...





Where would you want to swim ?
Last edited by: GregX: Feb 3, 08 8:23
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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Greg-
One of the more fascinating aspects of this Wolf SL fork debacle is the response (or lack thereof) from Cervelo on their own forum. Months went by with posters asking for "official" instructions and guidance from Cervelo regarding their fork installation. Gerard more or less opened Pandora's box when he advised someone on the forum that their bike was unsafe due to the number of spacers and the fact that the insert could not have been inserted correctly with that stack height. Then came the firestorm with posters flooding the board about their forks and LBS. Nothing from Cervelo for quite some time until Chris (Cervelocs on the forum) posted a couple of times to clarify some of the instructions. Interestingly enough, he provided information that he later admitted was flat out wrong. One of his last responses on the topic seems to summarize where Cervelo is going hang their hat. Cervelo does not manufacture the fork and can only provide guidance based on True Temper's instructions. That seems like a very convenient cop out and a transparent attempt at pushing responsibility elsewhere. In the same post, however, Chris (Cervelocs) states that Cervelo is recommending a max stack height of 70mm above the frame while acknowledging that True Temper recommends a max of 80mm. How can Cervelo on one hand defer to True Temper as the best source of information on the installation and performance of the Wolf SL fork (and presumably the best source of blame), while on the other hand state that they recommend a lower max stack height than does True Temper?
Cervelo, you can't have it both ways. Either you know nothing about the forks and its all True Temper's fault, or you are responsible for the bikes you sell down to the aluminum insert supplied with the forks. Either way, this is a major problem for owners of Wolf SL forks that really should have be more professionally handled. It is apparent that some Wolf SL fork owners were told by LBS's that they properly installed the forks based on instructions then available and were not willing replace the fork for free. I am also starting to see a bit of friction between dealers and Cervelo. Several posters on their forum have suggested that the LBS must have had under qualified mechanics do the installation. Hmmm... I would love to hear from some Cervelo dealers and their experience with the SL fork. It would be interesting to see what Cervelo has said to them that may not be information that plain old customers received. After all, we're just customers...
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [ In reply to ]
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very interesting post.

another thing to consider, ignoring the insert issue: a guy with 1 spacer and a long and highly angled stem could put A LOT more load on the steerer tube than another guy of equal weight and strength with lots of spacers but a short and level stem. simple mechanics.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Chip-
I am starting to come around to your view on this as well. It seems as though the only way to get things done right is to do them yourself. In Rod's case, however, I am going to put at least some of the blame on Cervelo for the incorrect installation. Take just a few minutes and read over the thread, "Can you guys check out my fork insert" on the Cervelo forum and you will see that there has been at least 3 different sets of instructions regarding the minimum insertion of the aluminum insert. Even after all of the commotion on the forum and, most likely, at several Cervelo dealers, there is still a disagreement between Cervelo and True Temper/Alpha Q on what the measurement should be. That said, I still think that the shop should be held accountable for the improper installation. From my very limited knowledge and ability with a bike wrench, I am keenly aware that there are several parts of a bike that you simply have to get right the first time and a fork is one of them.

Rod's case is not one of bad luck, but rather sloppy work by a mechanic. Had the fork been installed correctly and a squirrel jumped into his spokes thereby causing a chain reaction of events leading to the snapping of his fork, then I think that bad luck would be the prime suspect. :) What really irritates me is that Cervelo and, apparently Cervelo dealers, did not act proactively to address the improperly installed fork situation. Short of a recall, as has been suggested by several posters on the Cervelo forum, how is a person supposed to know that his/her fork is installed incorrectly? I just can't believe that Cervelo dealers, or Cervelo, have not made efforts to make sure that SL forks were installed correctly.

I think that Rod's case is very troubling because he did not have a ton of spacers above his headtube and really did think that the insert was far enough into the headtube. The usual scenerio is that a customer wants the bike that doesn't fit and gets that giant stack of spacers thereby making the fork installation faulty. I can't believe it happened to Rod since he is obviously on the right bike.

I am going to be good for a day or two and not make too much noise about this. I have an SLC with a Wolf SL fork in my basement waiting to be built up and have spent a lot of time watching this issue. As I mentioned above, I am **shocked** that this is the first time this has come up on ST. Some people have some explaining to do and I'll wait for them do that before starting my own thread(s).

I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you haven't worked in many bike shops, and if you did they were large (as shops go) corporate chains. That probably means you weren't in one that was sued or were and never heard about it being that only corporate dealt with it.

Bike shops tend to have a policy of aesthetic inspection only because of warranty wording and the wonderful legal system. As soon as a mechanic disassembles something pre-assembled from the factory, a failure at that point is no longer the sole responsibility of the manufacturer. The warranty becomes harder to push through with many companies (thinking of freehubs and wheels right now) and damn near impossible in some cases. Not sure how a wrench inspecting the fork would be grounds for a case that it's not Cervelo's responsibility, but I can guarantee you that given an expensive enough lawsuit their legal team would make a damn good case for it.
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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Ouch ...

Rod,

Glad to hear you are OK. Any type of failure with the fork, stem or handlebar can be catastrophic. This is NOT an area of the bike to skimp on strength. I am not a materials engineer or expert, but I sometimes do wonder about the strength of some of the ulta-light carbon parts.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [NextMerckx] [ In reply to ]
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I am not a mechanic and have never worked for or in a bike shop. Up until 4 years ago, my most significant amount of riding was to and from class in college. I do have some familiarity with the legal system and products liability and can appreciate what you are saying. Most businesses do whatever they can to decrease exposure to lawsuits and that is, of course, true for bike shops as well.

However, this thread and my posts are not really on point with your comments. Rroof's fork (and all Wolf SL fork delivered prior to several months ago) did not arrive at the LBS pre-glued or pre-installed. The LBS had to do all of the measuring, cutting and gluing. That is quite a bit different than disassembling products that came from the factory or bike company. The LBS has no choice but to be involved in that process and are fairly well up to their necks in terms of liability. Cervelo dealers, until recently, were not in a position to simply examine the fork and slap it in the frame.

To be fair, the LBS in this case has a great argument that Cervelo should be on the hook for this one. Their instructions were not clear and arguably just wrong. That is why I would love to hear from Cervelo dealers about how this gets resolved.
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, yeah, that'd change things. I was under the impression the fork came with the bike and was therefore Cervelo's sole responsibility.
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have any engineering background but I'll take a crack at this. It seems to me that a fork steerer tube has to, and will flex. You run into a potential problem wherever something stops the flex in an area and then concentrates it all instead at a specific spot. I would say these points will be at the bottom of the stem, the bottom of the aluminium insert(if you have one) and at the top and bottom of the headset. I think you have a real risk of a failure if two or three of these points coincide.

It looks like Rod's might have failed right at the top of the headset and maybe the bottom of the insert was also at that point. It also sounds like he had no spacers under the stem, meaning the top of the headset and bottom of the stem were also pretty much at the same point.

I think the guidelines should be:

- a few spacers under the stem so there is an area for the fork to flex between the top of the headset and below the bottom of the stem

- make sure the bottom of the insert doesn't coincide with the bottom of the stem OR the top of the headset

Greg.
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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Why wouldn't the use of spacers aggravate the problem since the additional length of the steerer tube/stem location also creates a lever? Isn't the limitation of 70mm of length is so no one places a stem at the very top? Isn't the most stress on the steerer tube always at the exact point where it exits the the frame no matter what the length of the steer tube?
Last edited by: Raptor: Feb 3, 08 10:49
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Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Timemachine] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I don't have any engineering background but I'll take a crack at this. It seems to me that a fork steerer tube has to, and will flex. You run into a potential problem wherever something stops the flex in an area and then concentrates it all instead at a specific spot. I would say these points will be at the bottom of the stem, the bottom of the aluminium insert(if you have one) and at the top and bottom of the headset. I think you have a real risk of a failure if two or three of these points coincide.

It looks like Rod's might have failed right at the top of the headset and maybe the bottom of the insert was also at that point. It also sounds like he had no spacers under the stem, meaning the top of the headset and bottom of the stem were also pretty much at the same point.

I think the guidelines should be:

- a few spacers under the stem so there is an area for the fork to flex between the top of the headset and below the bottom of the stem

- make sure the bottom of the insert doesn't coincide with the bottom of the stem OR the top of the headset

Greg.

That makes sence and sounds like what Cervelo is suggesting on their forum.

It looks to me like they are disagreeing with True Temper's instructions. They are saying one measurement that contradicts the manufacturer. It's a touchy subject if True Temper treats it as slander on their building skills. I would why the differences? It seems like Cervelo has the more conservative setup though.
Last edited by: LeopoldStotch: Feb 3, 08 10:49
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