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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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thanks Helle and Joel, interesting thread.

So here's what I get from this thread for training secrets:

most effort is easy, the rest is hard effort.
easy is driven by perceived effort primarily, not power, heart rate or pace.
5 swims weekly, 4-5km each.
6 runs, 2 work sessions, rest easy
4-5 bike, 2 work
bread and butter sessions are the build finish: bike 2-3 or 4hrs with the last 30-90 mins building pace or at race pace. Similar with the running: building / progressive runs / negative splits.
Higher intensity than threshold is often difficult to achieve when under a high overall work load, whereas threshold, tempo, or steady can be done effectively even when very fatigued.
Frequency is the most effective tool for improving any discipline for most athletes.

Funny, looks like lots of simple hard work, not many secrets as such, how disappointing ;-)
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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There are no secrets!

Just good, honest, consistent work, day after day, month after month, year after year. No such thing as that one special workout that will take you to the next level. Just like you can't throw a single brick down and build a wall - it's all the bricks, fitting well and joined together, that make the wall.

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / staernathan.com / @mstaer
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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helle_f wrote:
As I sit here back in Denmark I can't help but smile when I think back on the 2014 year. I thought 2013 was good but this year has been something else. It is the first time in my 6 years as a professional triathlete that I have really strung together a season that I am incredibly proud of. It was not perfect but it was definitely great.

Winning Challenge Bahrain was the icing on an incredibly satisfying year. After the disappointment of Mont-Tremblant I always felt like I had unfinished business. I am very happy that the commitment and investments we made towards Bahrain paid off. What happened in Bahrain was no fluke and I have a lot of people to thank for my successes and especially the Bahrain victory. The person who has contributed significantly and who I owe a large part of the thanks to is coach Joel Filliol. I moved to Joel at the back end of 2011, under what were then controversial circumstances as I left a national coach towards the end of an Olympic cycle. Post Olympics I then opted out of the national federation and funding program to go my own way. At the time I felt I needed this return of independence, do what I felt was right and find new 'unridden' ground. This brought me to non-draft racing and now in 2014 it is safe to say it was worthwhile.

But what has Joel done? What has changed for me? Why did I perform the way I did in Bahrain? Having been given the go ahead from Joel to do this. We will both actively commit our time over the coming days/week or so to this "Ask Us Anything" thread. Joel is currently on camp in Portugal whilst I drown myself in wine over here in Denmark ;-) Please excuse any delays in the responses but fire away and we will both do our best to make this worthwhile.

Thanks

Did you know that women were granted the right to vote in Bahrain way back in.....wait for it....2002?
That said, take the money and run!
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co - that's it, simple, focused on the fundamentals - the 'trick' if anything is knowing when / why / how to deviate from the 'formula', which could be for a variety of reasons, fatigue, illness, travel, recovery, etc.

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel, are there any physiological markers you track in your athletes, such as HRV ? Or is it all "how they feel" ?
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag - no recovery markers like HRV or morning hrt, etc. This quote sums it up:

"What is your ideal monitoring system? Coaches that pay attention" - @PfaffSC

Paying attention to mood, body language, words, tone, and simply watching movement, RPE, vs actual paces/power, vs expected. Reading feedback.

None of the 'modern' tracking has proven useful, reliable, easy to consistently implement, or causes other problems such as creating doubt within the athletes mind, which then tends to become reality.

J

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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thanks

On a less technical note...I heard you on Fitness Radio. Great interview.
As a Canadian with a name like Filliol, I was expecting a little more of a jonnyo accent. Au contraire. :-)
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel and Helle thanks for the thread. Congrats on a great season for you both.
Joel, I had a question for you. How do you train an AGer differently than a pro like Helle. Obviously the pros do more volume than just about all AG athletes.
Or maybe it's easier to ask something more specific. Your bread and butter sessions where the pace builds up to race pace by the end for the pros, do you prescribe the same for AG athletes? I would just think that the race pace for AG is just not that high enough of an intensity to build into for an AG athlete. That is if we use the somewhat accepted power suggestions for say IM racing. AG = .65-.75. Pro = .75-.80
I get its only a few percentage points, but we are usually looking at a different of 15-20 hours per week of training. I hope this makes sense.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri - the builds are not necessarily to triathlon race pace, but either simply by effort, or to physiological markers such as 1-2hr power/effort, or 1/2 marathon pace/effort. The beauty of these build/neg split sessions is even doing them by effort works very well, and it's hard to do them 'incorrectly', and the feedback if you do it immediate (unable to maintain the 'building' pace). E.g. next long ride, do the last hour 'hard' and see what you get for output.


J

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
tucktri - the builds are not necessarily to triathlon race pace, but either simply by effort, or to physiological markers such as 1-2hr power/effort, or 1/2 marathon pace/effort. The beauty of these build/neg split sessions is even doing them by effort works very well, and it's hard to do them 'incorrectly', and the feedback if you do it immediate (unable to maintain the 'building' pace). E.g. next long ride, do the last hour 'hard' and see what you get for output.


J

Joel....it sounds like at the peak of the "build" you end up at a slightly lower intensity/perceived exertion than in Daniel's cruise intervals (which he took from swimmers doing 400 m intervals). In other words an intensity from which you can recover quickly and do fairly frequently?
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev,

I don't worry about how to label that session, but any training we do ought to allow recovery and frequency to come back at the next session or next day as planned- that's the consistency principle.

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Tusind tak Halvard.

Sorry for such a delay in the response.

Us Danes can produce some solid triathletes that's for sure. If you base it on country population I'm going to put it out there that Denmark has the best rate of pro success per capita ;)

Yes it can be frustrating. Previously it may take up more energy or thoughts than it does now but on the whole I think the issue is deeper than we may think to overcome. In Denmark for example the focus on triathlon is insignificant which can hurt, especially when so much effort goes into winning such a race like Bahrain. IRONMAN Denmark does a great job at exposing the event and activating medias, especially television in Denmark. But that is it for Denmark. Anything outside of Denmark or the IRONMAN Denmark event is not valued unless there's a lifestyle story to relate to. Medias just don't understand the sport enough to cover it for performance purposes alone or recognize a big performance/exciting event.

In relation to Challenge Bahrain and the influence. I can with confidently say that it has already brought changes and some of the most needed ones. A reference was made to me today, by a business profile in the sport on a large level, who previously only valued, recognized and supported performances at IM 70.3 and full IM events. It was clear that performances in the Challenge Triple Crown in 2015 would carry equal value/recognition for them as that of Zell Am See/Kona.

How developments of Dubai/Oman/Bahrain take place I can only speculate. There is no doubt that having connected with 90% of my sponsor team post Bahrain they are now all ears towards the future of this series and other whispered developments. Dependent on the success of Dubai from a exposure, experience, coverage perspective then we could be looking at a very real 'change of trends'. Time will only tell.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
Last edited by: helle_f: Dec 17, 14 12:21
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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helle..have to disagree on your per capita comment ;)

How about New Zealand. 4.5 million. Erin Baker, Rick Wells, Hamish Carter, Bevan Docherty, Andrea Hewitt, Cameron Brown, Terenzo Bozzone.


Although over the years, Australia may be able to lay claim to that title just through sheer numbers...
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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I think Seychelles could be in with a shot - only one pro (Nick Baldwin), but a population of about 43*...



* Actually 92,000 according to wiki

On twitter talking about Triathlon, Cycling & Sport Science - @taffytriathlete
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
helle_f wrote:
Pretty hectic period at the moment, little time to sit down and read through posts. Keep the questions coming and answers will follow during the week. Thanks again.


Helle...wait wait....that's not acceptable. First thing you need to do when you get out of bed is log into ST while having your espresso (perhaps 3 is even better), respond to a few posts, get into a random argument and pissed off because of some random person on the internet. Then your morning swim workout will have higher quality because you will be well revv'd up about what some anonymous person on the internet said. This is the best warmup to morning training. Dan Empfield needs to post that in forum rules :-)

That and the perceived need to match the training of all the (aspiring) triathlon pros on here.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Great questions.

My decision comes down to what location can provide me with the most stable environment. The question then comes down to what contributes to a stable environment for me? Ben, facilities, treatment, ease of recovery, food availability, climate, terrain, treadmill. These are a few of which are all factored.

Training in a squad, absolute necessity for ITU racing where racing is as a group.
Training on your own, absolute necessity for non-draft racers to be able to punish themselves when alone.
Training with Alicia, awesome. It's very rare a girl can train with a girl, on an almost identical program and it brings smiles, added motivation, closer friendship and better racing. When a training partner brings proven positive for one another then don't change or break that intentionally.

pk: I'll elaborate on this last Q shortly as it deserves a more detailed response.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
Last edited by: helle_f: Dec 17, 14 12:43
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
doug in co - that's it, simple, focused on the fundamentals - the 'trick' if anything is knowing when / why / how to deviate from the 'formula', which could be for a variety of reasons, fatigue, illness, travel, recovery, etc.

Joel - would some of that deviation come as part of periodisation across the season? If so, how do you go about periodising the higher intensity workouts? Do you use the 'build sessions' across the whole season & off-season, or do you include other types of high intensity work at different times?

Do you agree with Brett Sutton's 'reverse periodisation' approach that he wrote about here - http://trisutto.com/...ation-for-triathlon/

On twitter talking about Triathlon, Cycling & Sport Science - @taffytriathlete
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [TaffyTriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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TaffyTriathlete - I don't like labels like 'reverse periodisation' - it's not new or novel - planning/periodization for sport always goes general to specific. In long distance racing of course the more specific work is going to come closer to the race, vs the early season when you are not as fit.


Our periodization model could be thought of with a concept of layers - each layer builds on the last, with the quality of what is achieve continuing to progress as conditioning deepens. In this model the type of work evolves but is not massively different from one phase to another.


We use building session in both the early season and specific phases, and of course are simply one type of session among others. The off-season is typically very short, and doesn't include any intensity.


J

>>>>
JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
Hey Dev,

I don't worry about how to label that session, but any training we do ought to allow recovery and frequency to come back at the next session or next day as planned- that's the consistency principle.

Joel, I love your approach...I think I am the prototype age grouper consistency athlete....if there was a 365 day long age grouper stage race, I'd win that event or at least hit the podium most years, so I agree with most of what you say....do you plan to have any long weekend type of training camps where you invite age group athletes to train with you and maybe select pro athletes that you work with?
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [RobK] [ In reply to ]
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RobK wrote:
Avago wrote:
helle_f wrote:
Rob,

Should I base my participation in triathlon events on the political status and happenings of a country I would probably not find myself racing too often. I chose to focus solely on what I feel is good for the sport of triathlon. On that basis I feel it is right for me to have raced in Bahrain. I'll not go any further into this issue.


Congratulations on your recent successes and your future celebrations.

Re - Politics of the host nation - your response is perfect, and should once and for all, silence any critic of those that do chose to participate.


I really don't understand how anyone might think that. She doesn't the address the main issue at all: this isn't just a general politics issue, this is more specifically about the person bankrolling the event who is accused by multiple sources of being personally involved in torture of pro-democracy activists. This isn't simply like doing a race in Apartheid South Africa, it's like doing one organised by the security police and with the cheques presented by Hendrik Verwoerd and Eugene De Kock. You might like to contrast this response with, for example, the vitriol that's directed towards Brett Sutton every time his name is mentioned here: the crimes that Sheikh Nasser is accused of are at least of the same magnitude as Sutton's, far more recent and have gone unpunished. Secondly, simply avoiding these issues is a complete cop-out: from the response above I assume that she would be happy to race in Apartheid South Africa or North Korea. Not too nice really.

Of course, she's had a lovely time, been treated like a rock star, won the race and made a load of cash so it's going to be difficult for her to deal with that, so the easiest thing is just to produce a bland and fairly meaningless response and ignore the issue.

Rob

I think the distinction you make between the morality of individuals versus governments is fairly arbitrary. A person who works for a government has agency, which means they have a choice whether or not to do that work. The pros and cons they face in different countries may differ but they have agency nonetheless. With choice comes moral culpability. So while your distinction between the culpability of the government of Bahrain and the government of South Africa may stand up to your subjective scrutiny, I think it is far from being a universal truth. Further, you present a neat binary categorisation of individual power versus institutional power. I don't think this is the place to bang on about the naiveté of that categorisation, but suffice to say that that's not how institutions work.

So, Bahrain is not a special case, distinct from other countries with policies with which a person might agree or disagree. And every time a person travels to another country, they pay taxes to the government of that country, which is a tacit (or perhaps not so tacit) endorsement of those policies. Am I responsible for propagating what some people see as an abhorrent war in Iraq, because I paid sales tax in NYC? Maybe. Am I responsible for the illegal detention of prisoners in Afghanistan, because I didn't withhold my taxes in the UK? Maybe. But maybe not.

In addition, while the argument for avoiding a country based on its politics or policies is valid one, so is that of engagement. Avoidance is a form of sanction and the question of whether or not sanctions work is entirely up for grabs. Iran, Myanmar and Cuba - they can be used to support either argument.

Perhaps we all could do more. Perhaps Helle could and I could and you could too. But for you to tell anybody what impact they caused by racing in Bahrain, or tell them they're not a nice person, or tell them that their response is a cop out - well, that seems a little off.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Neil] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to reply to this at length because I've taken up enough of this thread, so I'll just refer you to my more recent post on the matter which you don't seem to have noticed.

Rob
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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Wasn't able to watch it live, but watched the full race online. Stunning performance. Congrats
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk: just following on from my previous response. The main differences between training in a squad, on my own or with Alicia actually do not differ massively for me thankfully. Personally I don't need a squad of athletes, not in terms of company in training or in terms of how my races are. That said irrelevant on whether the ITU group likes squad training or not I believe it is the best training environment for ITU specific racing. Group training develops certain skill sets that are specific towards ITU racing. The same is said for solo training it does develop skills and attributes specific towards non-draft/solo racing.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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Luckily for me I am fortunate enough that I can choose my training location pretty much year round. My body responds better in warmer climates so I have to follow that. I spend about 4 - 5 weeks of a year in total at home (3 of those now being for off-season/Christmas). I'll spend the majority of time on the home training or outdoors MTB'ing. That said I am responsible for a number of athletes who are based in cold climates, I have them doing a lot of home trainer stuff. It works. It is a good substitute if managed well. 1 hour easy rides, and easy rides in general need to be there. If you need to work hard your body needs to be in a position to do so, that means it needs to be rested. Instead of looking at the 1 hour easy ride as 'an easy ride' look at it as a piece of the weekly jigsaw.

I'll choose Lanzarote over Mallorca ;) That said we can get unfriendly weather wherever we are in the world and S/B/R is adjusted on a day-by-day basis. The weekly pattern is set with a purpose so change for the weather needs to be discussed.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I can definitely see how that can and does happen, hence why I choose to read rather than contribute, most of the time :)


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
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