Save $600 and wrap the area in a washcloth steeped in warm water.
Or...save $580 and get a small heating pad.

These products are absolute snake oil. Do a simple test: Grab your TV's remote and start placing things in front of the beam. See how little material it takes to completely block IR light. Certainly, this device has more LEDs and are much more powerful, right? During school, I spent hundreds of hours using a microscope that uses a suitcase sized IR laser as a light source. This was obviously much much more powerful than any LED bank. Imaging at depths of 50um (~human hair) gave good illumination, but at 100um, it was quite dim and at 250um, there was no light.
So, even if IR did do anything magical (it doesn't), it cannot penetrate more than a few layers of dead skin. It will cause a little warming which feels nice, so just get a heating pad.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who have never tried a product feel they are an expert, the Willow Curve is amazing. I went from needing knee replacement to competing again. Try it they give you a 90 day money back guarantee. This is real science and a hell. Of a lot better then drugs. Too bad some people's minds are too small to accept new technology

And you are an expert on a new technology while never using it? Too bad your mind is this closed.

Show me a study that supports the fantastic claims of this product. I would even settle for a plausible mechanism that doesn't involve gentle heating.

I am glad that your knees are better. I truly am. But let me assure you that this gizmo had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I see you registered to make this comment, let me be the first to say welcome to slowtwitch.

Read the reviews on the site and Amazon. In addition the device has several well documented studies as well as years of NASA using the same red light therapy in space. My guess is none of this will matter to someone as closed minded as you. You have no interest in science only bashing things that you not the time nor the skill to understand .

Sorry man. I don't have time for you. If you want to show the science that proves your claim, put it on the Willow Curve's site. The burden of proof is on you, not the consumer. I won't lend you $600 for 90 days to do that for you.

If you want to shill your crap on here, back it up with more than anecdotal evidence. A quick review of the literature shows several studies going both ways. The "it works" papers admit the effect is small and have spurious proposed mechanisms, at best. The "it doesn't work" papers demonstrate better controls. None have a big enough sample size to show anything anyway.

Unless you reply with actual citations to the science which you claim I have no interest in, let this thread die in peace.

It is important to understand the nature of infrared energy. The Willow Curve appears to claim that the IR energy radiated penetrates into the skin and deeper - and that claim makes little sense: for IR to have penetrating abilities as they claim it must be generated at very high temperatures (or result in wavelengths just short of the visible light) - such high temperatures (well in excess of 1000 degrees C) would be too dangerous. I expect that the truth is as others have suggested: the IR wavelength spectrum striking the skin is at a longer wavelength and that the "heat" is carried into the body / joint from the skin surface via conduction. If that is so, then the other comments of "heating pad" seem to be right on target. By the way I have written to the Willow Curve folks asking their response to this argument, or to offer some scientific evidence) but have not received any sort of response. Before buying I would urge potential buyers to read up on Infrared technology. Good Luck!

I take all my advice from Amazon reviews. I bought 12 of these bad boys and my sex life has gone through the roof: http://www.amazon.com/...Sleeve/dp/B002HJ377A.


Care to post the names of the several studies you mentioned? Without it you risk coming across as a douche....

On a side note, would you like to join my religion of the Brotherhood of Nod? Read the scriptures on the Brotherhood of Nod site . In addition the religion has several well documented miracles as well as years of building temples. My guess is none of this will matter to someone as closed minded as you. You have no interest in religion, only bashing things that you not the time nor the skill to understand .

Not to wade into the "does it work according to their claims" argument, but LEDs and lasers can create infrared radiation in the 1400 to 750 nm region very effectively without needing the high temperatures you're associating with thermal-spectrum emission of that kind of radiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_therapy has info on heat therapy and notes that IR-A spectrum is effective and penetrates to several mm. I've had occasion to test high power IR LEDs for various purposes, and they penetrate fingers all the way, sufficiently that you can detect your cardiac pulse on the other side. So I can see where an IR beam can be applied and it will penetrate under the skin; the radiation is eventually absorbed by the body and presumably converted to heat. The only thing is that you need to pump out enough IR power that you actually generate some beneficial (?) heating effect. I have no idea what that power level would be, but generating a couple of Watts worth of IR energy with today's infrared LED technology is not that hard... if you had to pump out let's say more than 20 Watts then you would have to be more diligent in the design of your device.

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Less is more.

Excellent response - wish the folks at Willow Curve had explained it as well as you have - at least in terms of the physics. Learn something every day! Thanks! Still, I would be very interested to know about the amount of energy that is transported to a joint - can it be enough to make a difference, or can it be more than a heating pad could safely provide? Do you have any thoughts on this? And as you, I am not wading into the "does it work" debate - simply do the physics support the concept. Thanks!

So it repaired the mechanically damaged cartridge tissue in your knee? If that's true, Orthapedists are out of a job.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

It reminds me the the ultrasonic stimulation that a PT used on my knee for ITBS. It warmed it up and might have increased some blood flow. But overall was a waste unless it was done maybe 3 times a day. My actually problem was hip flexibility. The pain in the knee is a symptom. ITBS is not a knee injury. Its more hip related.

Increasing bloow flow can help repair an injury. But if we're talking about mechanical bone on bone, destroyed cartilage.... it ain't fixing that. It also won't fix poor run mechanics, or being overweight... 2 other causes of joint injury.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I'm an electronics engineer, not a biomed/kinesiology type so I don't know about how much it takes to make a difference. I think the basic thermal transfer characteristics of the body are somewhat known; and the absorption of the radiation can be modeled at some level of abstraction, using a corresponding amount of CPU power and getting greater or lesser accuracy as a result. So it is possible to work out how much power (both total energy and the instantaneous power required, really) needs to be input in order to cause a physiological response. Given the desired power flux, it is then possible to design an IR radiator to hit that target flux.

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Less is more.

Thanks one more time. I am very familiar with IR used for purpose of drying, hence learned something new from you! You seem to feel that - at least theoretically - the Willow Curve could bring the energy safely through the skin and "meat" to the joint. Would be nice to see something from the Manufacturer about this discussion, other than the empty comments by the "pumpers".

The company offers a 90 day money back policy, why wouldn't anyone try this before using drugs or surgery? I love seeing people deny technology. Wht if 20 years ago. I told you what a smart phone would do today?

Why do you keep repeating the same dribble. The burden should be on your company to provide overwhelming evidence your product works. Not a few questionable testimonials that it works. It does not appear your product works or will amount to anything other then another attempt at ripping off poor people desperate for help from pain. 20 Years ago smart phones didn't exist so it would have been a lie then. Today however smart phones work. Anyone can prove it. You offer no proof just predatory hope on the helpless. I'm going to rate this one with the device that made wine better by spinning the bottle over magnets "The Perfect Sommelier". 1 or 2 out of a thousand may think the wine taste better.

First, let me say that there are lots and lots of "good" ideas in the world, and ideas that make sense. Unfortunately, no matter how much sense they make, most ideas are just crap. This is especially true of ANY ideas regarding medicine, medical care and the human body and how it functions. TRUE ideas are very rare. How can you tell if an idea is true? It will be validated by GOOD scientific studies. Without good studies, it is still just an idea, and most ideas are wrong. So . . . . without good studies on the Willow Curve device, I have to say that it is very doubtful that it is a worthwhile machine. I couldn't care less how many people stand up and say, "It was GREAT. It helped me." Well, good for you all. Unfortunately, your opinion is worthless. Yep. Worthless. Why? Well, there are at least 5 major factors that compromise ANY AND ALL personal observations and "Testimonials." What are those 5 factors? 1. Placebo Effect. 2 Novelty Effect. 3. Cyclic Course of most human diseases, illnesses and problems. 4. Regression towards the mean on subsequent measurements and observations. 5. Effort Justification. I don't have time here to explain all of these. Suffice it to say that these 5 factors explain ALMOST ALL benefit that is reported in personal experience and testimonials with respect to 'Alternative' medical care.

Lastly, isn't the current standard in Physical Therapy to AVOID excess heat? Yes, heat feels good. Yes, it increases blood flow, but it causes the formation of misshapen and weak proteins that don't function very well. So, do you really want to use a device whose sole purpose is to put extra heat into he body? Again, where are the studies that demonstrate benefit? If it worked I'm sure they actually WOULD have good studies. Studies that are Double Blind and Placebo controlled, with the placebo being something like a heating pad. No studies tells me that they, the manufacturers KNOW that this is a scam, and they are preying on gullible people.

You are uninformed, well, really IGNORANT on this subject. The Willow Curve is not a bunch of LED lights as you suggest. It is a laser device. Lasers have been used for several years now to relieve pain for humans and even used in Veterinary Hospitals for animals.
"Best to keep ones mouth shut and seem a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." (Unknown)

LASERS!!!!!!

I've used therapeutic laser treatment and have to say, I was, well, really disappointed. Total scam and I should have never given that man in Times Square my $50.

Rune1800 is a plant I have found this plant on other willow curve forms promoting it without ever mentioning if they own it or have ever even seen it. There is one valid review on Amazon of one star. The other Amazon rating has been proved to be a plant and goes on to mention claims a dr says is impossible.
Willow curve sounds like a hoax.

tee hee tee hee

Haha, nice. Four total posts, all four on this thread.