Mentioned a couple of times already but I'll reiterate. No, you will end with lots and lots of people with cramps. Very dangerous.

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It may be “a” cause. I don’t think it’s the only cause.

No, you will introduce all new stresses and logistical issues.

Same thing here I did a rinky dink one in the middle of Iowa probably 10 years ago. I came off the bike second and I was like this will be easy I can swim the guy down I’m only 10-15 feet behind him. Jumped in the water and it felt like I had never swam before. Most miserable swim in a race over ever done and that’s saying something.

The key word is "inexperienced". Strong technique + swimming endurance will yield confidence in water. This is gained by consistent long term swim training. There is also the existence of underlying heart health conditions that one must be cautious about. Regarding the positives of swim run, we need to remember that pull buoys and paddles are allowed (a triathletes swim dream) along with wet suits in those events. As to jumping in the lake after a hot run, yes, especially here in Las Vegas, but that is to recover, not race.

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Super Sprints are no problem,sprints maybe,the rest not so much.
The Otillo and the other swim/runs have the competitors swimming with pool buoys and hand paddles to make the swims more manageable.

Video just because Lance is in it and it is fun to see people lose their mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo0BkNR9lcs

Otillo for those who have never watched it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGY5t9Vi48

I've only ever done a pool sprint that was a reverse tri. So only a 400m swim. I always felt worse after than than any Olympic Distance tri I've ever done.

But extrapolate this out. Swimming is the most technical of the three disciplines. Most deaths in triathlon happen in the water already. But instead of just heart attacks, you will have drownings, and a lot of them.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I did a race where the swim was put at the end of the race due to lightning. Not fun swimming 3.8km after running a marathon.. Finishing rate was bad.

If the swim was last it would be way too difficult to have your spouse, kids and dog with you as you cross the finish line.

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I've done a reverse sprint triathlon with a pool swim at the end -- 5K run, 20K bike, 500m swim. It wasn't bad. My experience was not cramping, but it was definitely harder to swim being already out of breath from the run and the bike.

If everything overnight switched to run-bike-swim, people would start training accordingly, bodies would adapt, and most people would be fine. Not everyone would be automatically doomed to cramping or poor swims just due to the order. It's not really normal for our bodies to do long swims followed by long bikes followed by long runs, but people train for it and their bodies adapt, and most people are fine.

As far as safety goes, I think you'd just be trading one set of issues and concerns for a different set, and there are some good reasons why the swim usually comes first.

I've not a tri historian or anything but I think the order of the disciplines is based on descending likelihood of death if a catastrophic fatigue-related failure occurs: //

Well I suppose that I'm sort of a historian when it comes to this stuff, and it was swim last in a lot of races in the first years of the sport. I did run/bike/swim and bike/run/ swim races, and there were a lot of them % wise back in the late 70's, early 80's. Dont remember anyone ever dying, but of course there were small numbers racing back then. And most were a lot tougher than todays athletes too, so some adversity was embraced, not avoided like is the norm today.


But it was super tough in those races, even for the best of swimmers. Yes there was a lot of cramping going on, and there was a lot of self rescuing going on too. And funny thing is that I don't remember there ever being lifeguards around either, so you knew you were on your own most of the time. Often some boat or paddler or two, but you just had to float sans wetsuit, and keep going to survive, a very good motivator.


And thinking about it, this order probably gets rid of most of the heart attacks we see today in the swims. There is not the anexiety of the start(mass or otherwise) and you are completely warmed up by the time you hit the water. I believe a lot of those missing factors would be enough to erase most of what happens in our swim starts. And with wetsuits now and lots of lifeguards, it just may be safer to have the swim last, although the finish % would probably go down..

New triathletes can't swim. Since the bike is earlier, people will also over-bike and cramp. It's such a bad idea that's it comical you suggested it. Get some experience in the sport and then form your own ideas based on reality. It's almost like a bad trolling attempt.

Ten years ago I did a run-bike-swim in hot weather in New Mexico, a pool swim sprint. While I wouldn't advise this normally or for open water swims, it really broke up the field to avoid pool congestion and most importantly was terrific to finish in the pool on a hot day.

For a pool swim event I'd prefer this over waiting in line for your pool start time.

I was at a race in the late 80s or early 90s and the swim was last. An athlete drowned that day.

Tim

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Read what Monty wrote. It has been done a lot in the past especially in sprint and Olympic length events. Not every race is an Ironman or half or needs to be one. Our sport does not need to be framed only by the needs of large ironman type events.

Maybe now is a great time for a resurgence of local events of all formats.

Another great format from an organizational angle is TT bike in a location where it is easy road and traffic wise and run from end of bike to entry into water and swim to finish. Or tack on another run to finish where you dropped off the bikes. If the swim is a pool swim then you just swim up one side of lane down the other and in an 8 lane pool you so all lanes up and down exit at far end and re enter start and repeat a second time for sprint and four times for olympic (well you would do 6 lanes twice on the fourth round for 1500m)

Classic case of dumbing down the sport for those who either shouldn't be doing mass starts yet or should just wait the few seconds for the mass to go and then start swimming at the back of the pack. Mass starts are one of the most exhilarating experiences in an Ironman that I really enjoy.

Most triathlons start first thing in the morning when there is least wind and the water is flattest and ultimately safest in my experience. Also water safety only have to be focused for minimal time not hours as it would be over a triathlon of any distance.

Fuck no. Have you seen the state of some of the "swimmers" exited the swim, they stagger onto the beach, barely alive.. can you imagine them trying to swim after 15 hours on the bike and run. It would be carnage.

My first 70.3 was IM 70.3 Kansas. I kept my head down until my hand touched bottom. As I was coming into shore my hand hit some guy's butt as he was being carried out of the water by one volunteer on each side. He was cramping so bad he couldn’t walk out of the water. Due to my own inexperience I wondered for a long time how that was possible. The reality is the guy was dehydrated before the event started. The swim at the end is just a really bad idea.

The other problem is the logistics. People in kayaks in the water for how long? Divers underwater etc. the swim support would have to be intact for far to long as the race streched out.

This is a very interesting question, and I'll throw my vote in with the minority camp that it might be better for sprint/oly distance to have swim last. Half and full IM distance, the fatigue and lack of fueling aspects become much bigger deals, as well as the difficulty of monitoring for long enough.

You can't easily train for the chaos of a mass start in the water, and it's also really hard for kayaks/divers to keep an eye on everyone in a crowded pack. But you can easily train for the stress of swimming after biking and running -- we just never do those bricks because of the typical order of events. Space things out by putting the swim last and a single athlete struggling becomes much easier to spot and manage.

A crazier idea to add on: if you put the swim last and that raises concerns about drowning safety, why not let people use swim aids, like pull buoy/paddles/fins (and possibly make the swim longer to compensate)? Presumably the best swimmers still do the best with such assistance... though I suppose these could still make passing other swimmers less safe. Wetsuits as the only legal assistance for swimming seems very arbitrary once you're not mass-starting.

Finally, regarding safety: why in the hell does USAT not make athletes pass some sort of swim test? I get that there are already enough barriers to entry that they don't want to make racing harder, but it seems crazy that they will give you a membership with no proof that you can swim!

TriHK is now implementing a swim test for people signing up the ASTC triathlon in October which is an Olympic distance held in rough water.

"triathlon" is not equal to "ironman".

I agree, for even half and full not a great idea, besides safety it is not practical. Sprint is totally doable, and likely for olympic too depending on venue.

But like anything on here, everyone assumes triathlon means mass start Mdot events. There is more to this sport (and I have done 31 full IM length events, so I'm not here IM bashing, I get the draw to them)

Just thinking about the carnage from IM Texas in 2016 when the hail storm came in. The course had to be cleared and all volunteers had to seek shelter. Now had everyone been swimming... Oh my. Dozens - maybe hundreds - of deaths from fatigued people freaking out, and with no one able to help, drowning. The next day bloated bodies floating to shore, birds munching on eyeballs.

It would have been the last IM Race ever contested.

I’ll go ahead and say this is not going to happen in an IM race ever.

Dev,

I always find it hilarious when the old timers here in the Tri forum complain about mass starts going away. But, most local tris take place in the pool...no mass starts there.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

If you overcook the bike, you'll walk the run. If you are cooked prior to the swim, you are likely to be in distress, especially if you push to the finish line.
Then there are some logistical issues like doing a mass start for cyclists, bike leg being insanely crowded, people putting on wetsuits in the middle of the day on a sweaty skin, etc.

Just a bad idea, imo.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I’ll give my experience during the TripleT afternoon reverse Olympic race (Friday evening is a normal super sprint, Saturday morning is a normal, hilly, Olympic). I used the plastic bag trick to get my wetsuit on and the cold water felt great after a tough bike leg. First my right calf cramped, then my left. No big deal, just let the legs float. The cramp in my arm caught me by surprise. The real problem occurred at the end of the first swim loop. I thought I was close enough to the shore to hit bottom an run in. I wasn’t. As soon as I went vertical my entire body from the waist down went into a cramp. I quickly went horizontal and swam to shore, lower body still stiff. My wife was there and told me about all the groaning, yelling and screaming as everyone was cramping. TripleT doesn’t attract too many novices, there is no way an inexperienced swimmer could keep calm in that situation.