"I don't think, though, that if a cyclist walked into a hospital after a hard stage in the middle of a race, that any doctor would prescribe him EPO or whatever drug, as treatment. Probably, the medical solution would be a couple of aspirin and a recommendation of some rest."

Again, of course not. EPO raises hematocrit, and unless the rider had an unhealthly low level of hematocrit this would be the wrong treatment for whatever the condition is. Everyday we *treat* ourselves so that we can keep doing whatever it is we love, rather than resting or giving it up all together. Part of a doctor's responsibility is to prescribe the correct treatment but also enable the patient to maintain the same quality of life.

"In other words, do you think most dopers are doping to self-medicate, in a sense, or to gain an advantage over their competition?"

I speculate that it's a bit of both, with the tendency moving toward simply maintaining normal levels of various hormones within the body (I posted a link to an article by Jorg Jascke's doctor saying pretty much the same thing). So, if athletes are able to keep their bodies in homeostasis, I doubt the difference between those riders and the ones over-doing it is going to be very great, and the performance gains from doing so might be negligible enough to dissuade cheating because of the risk involved.

I continue to think about this subject, and so many opinions on how bad it is, and they would never ever ever do it.

I was thinking when I was talking to an official that by default, the rules can be used for an "advantage", even though there is a down side.

So, lets look at drafting. What are ones odds of getting "caught". Very low. So, one could offer that for a very good racer, using the rules could be an advantage. Meaning, if the worst case for an elite is a 4 minute time penalty for the first offense, I could see this just being part of how to play the sport. (And seeing how many pros over the years get drafting penalities in Hawaii shows me it is being used to a cost/risk tradeoff, IMO. And I see nothing wrong with it since who would not use the rules to maximize ones performance?)

In basketball, one knows how many fouls you can get before you are removed from the game.

So, doping could be looked at the same way for a lot of folks. The odds of getting caught are very very low based on various posts I have read. And, at least in our sport, whats the worst that could happen to you. You get a 2 year vacation, and then go back to racing.

So, I would offer whether its doping, drafting, etc., the name of the game in any sports is to look at the risk/reward balance for results vs penalties. If you were just one small step away from the top and all the things that may come from it, for any one of us not in those shoes to understand the pressures and egos involved, well, I know I cant.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Let's not use "vitamins" and "performance enhancing drugs" in the same breath, as if they are similar compounds."

While certainly not similar compounds, they're often used for the same purpose: To improve performance.

"Looking at your statement ... we both seem to be talking about people that are putting their performance ahead of their health..."

Not necessarily. I simply think that medical technology is capable of keeping our bodies healthy in ways that have only recently become possible and safe.

"Again, how did professional athletes accomplish the feat 40+ years ago?"

Cocaine, opiates, caffeine...

I simply think that medical technology is capable of keeping our bodies healthy in ways that have only recently become possible and safe.

I agree with that ... and I am in the camp that thinks many males within the next 20 years may be receiving GH, testosterone or small steroid amount treatments as a way of "fighting aging" and "physical decline".

"Again, how did professional athletes accomplish the feat 40+ years ago?"

Cocaine, opiates, caffeine...

So, maybe this sport needs to go. If there is no reasonable way for an athlete to compete in the event without reliance on such compounds, then perhaps the sport either needs to [1] disappear, or [2] become like bodybuilding and allow everything and test the human limits of tolerance to PED's. Of course, the latter is hypothetical, since many of those compounds are classified as illegal drugs.

Every sport, seemingly has its favorite little "energy pills" (often time illegal amphetemines), that seem to be more about allowing the athlete to "party all night and still perform" rather than aid an extensive recovery program (including 8+ hours sleep, etc). We (athletes) want our cake and to eat it to, day after day.

[This is me unplugging my internet connection. I really can't spend the day continuing this discussion, as interesting as it is. Gotta get some things done. Later guys.]

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Sorry to hear that you can't avoid the temptation to cheat. I can and I always will. I'm not perfect and no human is, but deciding whether or not to take a banned performance enhancing drug is unacceptable. Your comparison of doping and drafting is ludicrous, in my opinion, but regardless they are both wrong. It's ludicrous because taking PEDs takes a lot of premeditation.

Attitudes such as yours and Drea's really concern me about our sport and our society in general. I was told by a top professional that doping was a lot more prevalent in triathlon (age group and pro) than I would think and now I'm beginning to believe her. It's too bad that we've become a society that doesn't understand right and wrong and that breaking the rules is OK as long as we don't get caught. Too many people are looking for instant gratification and the quick fix.

"It's too bad that we've become a society that doesn't understand right and wrong and that breaking the rules is OK as long as we don't get caught."

I think you just described the rapid downward spiral of our society. No values, no ethics, no responsibilities....just pleasure and $$$$$$. But that is for the Lavender room.

The relevant point I want to make is that your "Too bad" is exactly contributing to that development. Not caring and hating are easy and bear no responsibilities and consequences. Both are very easy to walk away from.

Trying to understand and making your arguments against a certain problem heard by those that have no ethical and moral values is more difficult....

People often don't realize that they are part of the problem AND the solution.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

You totally miss the point of the conversation. But, my experience with folks is the more strong a person says they would never do something, the more they may have things in their closet to hide, IMO. (Am I am not saying this to anyone specific person!!)

As our society ages, and meds are used for quality of life improvements, we will have to deal with some drugs which will have multiple effects. Better for us to talk now and try to find the correct line in the sand, than just stick our head in the sand and say its just a black and white answer. See Cathy, I do believe in some shades of gray. :o)



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I am guilty as charged: I just had my second cup of coffee.

But if you are interested in knowing more:

I don't plan on racing a triathlon today. And I did not take caffeine with the "resolution" to cheat while bicycle commuting....

Am I off the hook?

But I guess I am already filed in one of the drawers. Well, too bad that most people nowadays think that someone who is vocal about his convictions has to hide something. That's part of the problem, you know....

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Having made it through most--but not all of the responses to this thead, here is my perspective (from the pointy end of the domestic peloton...).

First off, I think you'd be suprised just how well a clean rider can race--take a look at Andy Hampsten's results just to get an idea--top 5 in the Giro and Le Tour in the same year, during the dirtiest period of the sport. Hell, even Willy Voet said Andy was clean! (I also read in Cycle Sport a really disturbing interview with a doctor who worked with one the teams which Hampsten rode on in the 90's, basically saying that he told him quite matter-of-factly the possible benefits of the drug, and Hampsten declined...). And, no offense to Hampsten, but no one would say he was the most talented guy to ever ride a bike. So, it IS possible to compete at the top level without drugs.

Furthermore, I know with about as much certainty as one can know, that there are other elite guys competing at the pro tour level without drugs. So, in effect, it is not impossible to compete without drugs.

People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Regardless of what you think of the rules, if you belong to an organization (USAC/UCI), you're bound by the rules. If you don't follow them, you're cheating, and it's not fair to those who aren't cheating--whether it's 1 guy, 10 guys or 100 guys.

No, I didn't miss the point and no I don't have anything to hide. I will take a drug test anytime and if that doesn't prove anything then I'll take a lie detector test. If I pass both then I get your bike and race wheels. If I fail either then you can have my bike (P3C and race wheels) and my kona slot.

You and many like you miss the point which is black and white:

Right=Right=Legal=follow the law=follow the rules and regulations

Wrong=Wrong=illegal=cheating=doping

To reply to the original question, Why so much hate for dopers?

Firsty, I do not hate them. I do want a clean sport. No doping, no cheating. WHY? Because it is a sport that many of us do for recreation, for fun! Even the pro's, regardless of their sport, are doing something that many of us do (or did) for fun. We expect it to be fun for them. Not an obsession, not merely a job, but fun--like it is for us.

Yes, there are pressures from many sources. We do not feel those pressures. We like to see people (who we feel are just like us) do super human things. It is like making heros of singers, actors, or athletes. We want to see the gladiator as just like me, but better. We do not want to know about their use of "drugs" to get them to that point.

I wish all athletes were clean. That is the level playing field, the world I want to live in. It is not a real world, but that is WHY WE HATE DOPERS!

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Team Zoot So Cal